The younger fandom, and how they learned from exactly none of our mistakes.

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Josh, Jan 6, 2020.

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  1. Sable

    Sable

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    I could just as easily say that your arguments are weak because you haven't provided anything other than conjecture shaded by your own dislike of those titles. There is not any semblance of overwhelming evidence that SEGA was solely and entirely grabbing for cash in an era full of weird, gutsy, and ambitious decisions that were oftentimes entirely illogical. In fact, isn't it a common argument against the classic titles that they were also a marketing ploy to kick Nintendo while they were down and capitalize on the edgy mascot trend of the 90s?
     
  2. Nova

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    Again, I never said it wasn't true of other times in the series' history. I also never said I disliked all of those games. You're assuming a lot.
     
  3. Sable

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    In that case, at least you're consistent. I'm not of the opinion that money has ever been their sole motivation until more recently, but I would much rather have someone be willing to apply that to the classics as well. And, I mean, fair - I'll agree that I've jumped to conclusions, but the way you've presented your opinions on those titles within this discussion doesn't exactly give me a ton of room to think otherwise.
     
  4. Nova

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    It's just laughable to me because the main criticism at the time those games were coming out was that Sega didn't care and were just making whatever would get them a quick buck, so to see you lauding it as a golden age for personal investment in the franchise is... Really at odds with what the feeling actually was at the time.
     
  5. Sable

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    It's almost like the passage of time allows people to look at things in a different light. Seeing what it looks like when they really are churning out soulless, mediocre games has really changed a lot of people's perspective on those titles - especially certain games like Unleashed HD, which was marred at the time for superficial reasons but is now considered by a significant portion of the fanbase to be a stellar game that's overflowing with polish and care.
     
  6. Billy

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    It's obvious to me that "pleasing the masses" has always been part of Sonic Team's M.O. As has already been brought up, the character himself was designed to appeal to as many people as possible, with input from both the Japanese and American sides of Sega. Additionally, it's been said in interviews that the reason why E-102 and the game Shadow the Hedgehog exist was because fans kept sending in mail asking for them to give Sonic a gun. Whether that's motivated by cash grab, executive meddling, or something else on the developer's part is up in the air.
     
  7. Sable

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    Well, no, I don't disagree with that. It's normal and healthy to want to appeal to your fanbase, and they clearly have included several concepts explicitly for that reason. It just can also coexist with passionate execution, and I've always been of the opinion that it does for the most part regardless of questionable quality from a gameplay/mechanical standpoint.
     
  8. It's pretty obvious that the series has been pretty much chasing trends for most, if not all of its lifespan, and they just throw around whatever they can to make a sale:

    -Genesis/Mega Drive Era: "Fuck we need a mascot with 2D sidescroller games to compete with Mario."
    -Saturn Era: "WE NEED A NEW SONIC GAME, BUT EVERYTHING IS ON FIRE, FUUUUUUUUUUCK"
    -Sonic Adventure: "We're rebranding the series to appeal to gamers of the late 90s, so that means we need to make everything EXTREME and have giant monsters and shit."
    -Adventure 2: "Trim the fat, but now we're a sci-fi action movie with shounen anime tropes and CONSPIRACIES OF THE HIGHEST ORDER. Also SPAAAAAAAAAAACE"
    -Heroes: "Alright the Dreamcast is dead and Sega's out of the hardware business, so now we need to rebrand Sonic AGAIN to appeal to the kids that are on other platforms, but throw in some Classic and Adventure era stuff to not be TOO alienating."
    -Shadow: "Platformers are getting edgy now; people seem to love Jak II and 3, and kids are nagging us to make Sonic use guns, but that's dumb, so here's Shadow with a gun instead. Let's also make most of the game brown and washed out, and throw in vehicles and shit too because kids love Call of Duty, Halo, and GTA. Also ALIEEEEEEEEEENS"
    -06: "We gotta make everything realistic so we can show off 7th gen hardware. Let's just make Sonic Adventure, but make it Final Fantasy or some shit. Let's give Sonic a human princess waifu love interest too. FUCK IT, WE'RE CRASHING THIS FRANCHISE WITH NO SURVIVORS."
    -Secret Rings: "Turns out we can't port 06 to the Wii so we made an autorun game with terrible motion controls instead. Also were watching Aladdin and heard 'ARABIAN NIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHTS~', so we just made a game where Sonic fights genies and shit."
    -Unleashed: "We need to show off our new lighting engine so here's a game about Sonic traveling the world. People liked Twilight Princess right? Fuck it, Sonic's a Werewolf now because we can. Also Sonic controls like a race car during the day, and is furry Kratos at Night."
    -Black Knight: "People like those Zelda Wii games right? Fuck it, Sonic has a sword now because fuck you. Have fun with the waggle controls!"
    -Sonic 4: "People liked New Super Mario Bros. and Mega Man 9/10, so fuck it, here's our half-assed attempt at milking the Classic fans."
    -Colors: "Okay, so the critics don't like edgy shit in Sonic, so here's the most light-hearted game in the series since...*reads list* Tails Skypatrol! ... Whatever that game was? The hell is a Game Gear, anyway? Also Mario power-ups are in, because Nintendo. Also they're ALIEEEEEEEEEEEEENS, but this time they're GOOD GUYS."
    -Generations: "Here's a 3 hour nostalgia trip to remind you that the series you loved as a kid was once good, but brace for impact, because guess what we have next?"
    -Lost World: "We got a Nintendo-exclusive deal thing that Sega's making us do, so fuck it, let's just make a Mario game, but call it a Sonic game. We'll even rip off Bowser and the Koopa Kids. People liked Colors, so here's more ALIEEEEEEEEEEEEEENS for no reason!"
    -Boom: "We need to pander to western audiences even HARDER, so let's just sink $20 million into this bad boy and- OH GOD EVERYTHING'S ON FIRE AGAIN, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"
    -Mania: "Sega wants us to make a new 2D Sonic game, and those indie devs that remastered Sonic 1, 2, and CD just happened to walk in, and people like those little indie hipster 2D sprite games on Steam these days, so fuck it, let them make a new game while we develop our 3D game- HEY WHAT THE FUCK, THIS GAME IS ACTUALLY GOOD? HOW IN THE FU-"
    -Forces: "People like character creator things in games these days, so we'll finally throw deviantart a bone with this one. Okay, now let's throw the Adventure fans a bone and make a darker story again, and we'll bring back Sonic's rogue gallery of fan favorite villains, like Metal Sonic and... Zavok... fuck you you're going to fight Zavok and LIKE IT. Also Shadow is back, and so is Chaos, but they do basically nothing, but it'll make for good bait to get them to buy it. If that doesn't work, let's see... hmm... fuck it, throw in Classic Sonic and Green Hill again, tie the story with Mania to bait the Classic fans, and make the whole game be like Colors and Generations, but play 100 times worse. We're throwing everything at the wall here, someone is BOUND to buy it."

    That's how I see things, anyway.
     
  9. Palas

    Palas

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    Wait, hold on, Sonic Battle is legitimately fantastic. Hands down the best worldbuilding and character presence the Adventure era ever had, largely due to everyone playing more or less the same way, given enough timescreen and signature within a gameplay framework.

    Also Holy Summit.
     
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  10. Laughingcow

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    Well, that was generic. It's every "I'm leaving X fandom" video. It happens when you self-identify with a franchise but then the franchise either changes or dies and we get your typical sad sack video.

    Do I consider your points valid...not really. I'll explain this to you in clear English:

    The change in the quality of Sonic products happened because Sega went third party meaning Sonic no longer needed to compete with Mario and sell consoles. This meant a cut budget (staff and time) which lead to mediocre games. The fact that the quality slip starts with Sonic Heroes is a testament to this fact. Ambition on a low budget is usually a bad idea.

    Now go play some others games and don't make the same mistake of turning said game into part of your identity less you end up making another one of these videos.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  11. Sable

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    Nah, it's a super good game - one of my favorites in the series, actually! I was mostly just saying that it's not something that you would expect to be a million-seller or something.
     
  12. Nova

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    Don't let any of what I said about it take away from the fact that I actually really loved Battle. A group of us used to play the multiplayer and it was actually kinda alright if you had a full complement.

    Story wasn't too bad either, all things considered.
     
  13. SpeedStarTMQ

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    I fucking exhaled so much air through my nose reading this. Brilliant.

    I will say though that Chaos appears to have been a plan since concept art of Sonic 2 / 3, though I agree with basically everything else. Sonic’s always gone for the popular stuff. It’s just a shame though with what they think is popular the last decade or so and will sacrifice consistency for it.

    Also, Sonic Battle has a fantastic story mode which was quite emotional. If you played this then Sonic Advance 3, you could almost cry - that game really did wrap up things for the franchise, especially the Master Emerald as a plot point.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  14. Naean

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    Furthermore, reading through what CynicalSonicGuy said for each game, and seeing how each game ended up in their released state, I find that SEGA is pretty good at being aware of and copying the basic idea/framework of others, but are pretty consistently inconsistent at executing said ideas/frameworks overall successfully. They appear to have a bad habit of copying trends without copying good execution. I wouldn't mind too much if Sonic games were all over the place in terms of lore/character timelines if too many of them weren't also all over the place in terms of quality.
     
  15. Here's what I think is wrong with Sonic Team/Sega:

    Sega wants money and doesn't seem to be willing to let Sonic Team delay games if they've had a set release date already. Notice how they delay the smaller/spin-off games that Sonic Team isn't the primary developer of (Sonic 4: Episode I, Sonic Mania, Team Sonic Racing), but never delay the core Sonic Team platformers. I think it's because Sega knows that those games aren't destined to be million-sellers so they can use more time in the oven, but thinks Sonic Team needs to get their games out ASAP so they can run off with their paycheck.

    This is what happened with Sonic '06, for instance. The team was already small, then Sega made this deal with Microsoft to advertise the game, so they said "ok Iizuka just do it fast." Iizuka mentioned in an interview with Game Informer that Sega gave them absolutely no time to fine-tune their work and they just churned out whatever they could before the deadline. It also looks like this happened with Sonic Forces because while it's generally polished, there's so much unused content that it's obvious the final game is not what Sonic Team had in mind.

    But Sonic Team, on the other hand, is overambitious and struggles to find ways to keep Sonic relevant in a time when platformers are no longer the dominant genre. Shadow the Hedgehog and the Werehog, for instance, were well-meaning but misguided efforts to merge then-recent trends into Sonic. These two situations create problems when Sega needs Sonic Team to finish their new Sonic game, but Sonic Team has yet to polish their work and panics. This is why it seems like, in my opinion, we’re getting too many Unleasheds and Black Knights and not enough Colors and Generations.
     
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  16. Sir_mihael

    Sir_mihael

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    You damn well knows it buddy. Zavok Adventure 3 any day now. :V
     
  17. Overlord

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    Am I the only one who still believes Colours is one of the best stories the franchise has ever done? Hits the Saturday morning cartoon notes perfectly that I've always seen Sonic's tone as.

    Much rather have more of that than the likes of Shadow, 06 or even SA2.
     
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  18. Palas

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    The thought no longer applies, because SEGA is doing so much better nowadays - but I used to see SEGA and Sonic Team as something like a dying star, burning its own fuel because it simply couldn't help it.

    Without any other franchises whatsoever to profit from and no structure to start something new from scratch like an indie studio or fresh subsidiary might, SEGA just had to get Sonic Team to make Sonic games every year in order to keep the company sufficiently healthy. But since they had no other strong franchises to invest on, all they could do was to invest on Sonic. So it was a self-defeating cycle in which Sonic kept riding its own wave and having to create another wave for it to ride on, instead of feeding other teams and franchises (or even a console) for them to buy time, spotlight and resources to have another Sonic game later on.

    As if Sonic had no ground to step on so it just had to hop all over the place searching for for funding for the next game. This may have contributed. And SEGA doing a lot better nowadays may have something to do with there having not been any major Sonic games as of late.
     
  19. Beltway

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    I'm personally detached from the whole fandom generational war because I have for years resented and still resent the attitude of the fans (at large) being held responsible for the series' troubles; when it is so obvious looking at the history of this franchise where all these audience divisions took root from in the first place, who made these mistakes to begin with, and thus where the real blame lies. I think all parts of the fandom would be better off recognizing that and focusing their anger there, although unfortunately Sega/ST has shown to either ignore or negligently "listen" to and handle fan feedback when it somehow does reach their doors. So who knows.

    You'd be surprised with how once every blue moon or so, a "true Sonic fan" or two will come out of hibernation to assert otherwise. Each and every game (or product overall) is "perfectly fine/not that bad," Sonic and Sega are awesome and can do no wrong, and the rest of the world (but the fans especially) was just conspiring to keep the franchise down.

    With all the effort certain people make to ostracize other fans who don't share the same opinions about the series as they do, it really does highlight the bizarre entitlement those people have with this franchise.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  20. Multi Battler

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    Well, everyone can be a Sonic fan. :V
     
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