The younger fandom, and how they learned from exactly none of our mistakes.

Ayu Tsukimiya · Apr 27, 2020

qwertysonic said:

This is why SA2 is such a good game in the eyes of so many people. It's not "because it's dark" or "Shadow is edgy". It's because it provides just enough to get people interested and holds back enough to keep people discussing it. It's the same mechanic that makes movies like The Prestige or Inception so great. Not that SA2 is on the same level as Inception, but the fact that kids are debating on the playground whether Sonic is in fact the Ultimate Life Form, or why did Gerald design Shadow to look like like Super Sonic. Or what actually happened at the end: did Shadow die, will he come back? It's the intrigue that makes this game a classic.
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How people can say this story is particularly dark or edgy is beyond me. It feels like something out of a kid's anime or Kamen Rider or something, which really isn't too far off from stuff like SATAM when you think about it.

Like you said, it's the execution that matters most in making it all fun and interesting.

Josh · Apr 27, 2020

Ayu Tsukimiya said:

How people can say this story is particularly dark or edgy is beyond me. It feels like something out of a kid's anime or Kamen Rider or something, which really isn't too far off from stuff like SATAM when you think about it.
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I mean, like I said much earlier in the thread, it REALLY makes a difference if you're the right age for it. Power Rangers was this high-stakes, edge-of-my-seat thriller when I was a kid, and now it's decidedly NOT. I was kind of in-between childhood and, uh, not-childhood for SA2, and I sorta see it both ways. It seemed like this cool, epic, albeit nonsensical tale, like Sonic was growing up WITH ME (whereas Heroes' story and dialogue decidedly gave me the opposite impression), but watching it back now, it's INCREDIBLY poorly-executed, tropey, tonally inconsistent with anything the series had ever done, and lousy with plot holes and translation errors. Same as Power Rangers, there's some enjoyment to be had in how cornball it really is, but I'd never call it a good story. More importantly, a Sonic game that came out NOW and had the same serious tone would have to stick the landing PERFECTLY and have EXTREMELY strong writing to avoid being raked over the coals for being "too much like 06." And Sega KNOWS this, which is why even a game like Forces that sorta-kinda FLIRTS with the idea of having higher stakes is still so wishy-washy about it, to its own detriment.

qwertysonic · Apr 27, 2020

Unpopular opinion time: I actually like Sonic 06's story for how it felt like a conclusion for Shadow's story. In SA2 they introduce Shadow and he hates humanity and resents Maria's untimely death. In StH he learns more about his (now unnecessarily edgy past) and come to terms with it. In Sonic 06 he's made peace with his past and starts working for GUN. When he meets Mephiles and learns of his future and that humans will turn on him, he still chooses to fight to protect humanity. It feels like Shadow has grown as a character. And he's deeper than "Life sucks, lol kill all humans".

Of course all of this doesn't make up for the fact that Sonic 06 is a mess of a game that is generally not fun to play.

The Joebro64 · Apr 27, 2020

qwertysonic said:

Unpopular opinion time: I actually like Sonic 06's story for how it felt like a conclusion for Shadow's story. In SA2 they introduce Shadow and he hates humanity and resents Maria's untimely death. In StH he learns more about his (now unnecessarily edgy past) and come to terms with it. In Sonic 06 he's made peace with his past and starts working for GUN. When he meets Mephiles and learns of his future and that humans will turn on him, he still chooses to fight to protect humanity. It feels like Shadow has grown as a character. And he's deeper than "Life sucks, lol kill all humans".

Of course all of this doesn't make up for the fact that Sonic 06 is a mess of a game that is generally not fun to play.
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I completely agree with everything you said.

I actually feel like Shadow's story in '06 would have been really something good if it'd added a sense of reluctance to work with GUN because he still has lingering resentment over Maria. In the '06 remake I've envisioned in my head for the past few years, Shadow genuinely considers joining Mephiles, and chooses to help Eggman get the Scepter of Darkness because Eggman goads him into it by referencing his hatred. Then after sealing Mephiles in like he did at the end of his story, Rouge reveals that she knew of Shadow's plan and berates him for contemplating working with Eggman again, making Shadow feel like an absolute degenerate. That would've been a really emotionally investing story, if you ask me.

(Also in my '06 remake, Eggman is then revealed as the true mastermind behind everything and takes over the universe by unleashing Solaris, but Silver uses the Chaos Emerald he has to bring Blaze, Marine, and Classic Sonic into their dimension, and you play as them in End of the World. Also Sally instead of Elise.)

CynicalSonicGuy · Apr 27, 2020

TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64 said:

qwertysonic said:

Unpopular opinion time: I actually like Sonic 06's story for how it felt like a conclusion for Shadow's story. In SA2 they introduce Shadow and he hates humanity and resents Maria's untimely death. In StH he learns more about his (now unnecessarily edgy past) and come to terms with it. In Sonic 06 he's made peace with his past and starts working for GUN. When he meets Mephiles and learns of his future and that humans will turn on him, he still chooses to fight to protect humanity. It feels like Shadow has grown as a character. And he's deeper than "Life sucks, lol kill all humans".

Of course all of this doesn't make up for the fact that Sonic 06 is a mess of a game that is generally not fun to play.
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I completely agree with everything you said.

I actually feel like Shadow's story in '06 would have been really something good if it'd added a sense of reluctance to work with GUN because he still has lingering resentment over Maria. In the '06 remake I've envisioned in my head for the past few years, Shadow genuinely considers joining Mephiles, and chooses to help Eggman get the Scepter of Darkness because Eggman goads him into it by referencing his hatred. Then after sealing Mephiles in like he did at the end of his story, Rouge reveals that she knew of Shadow's plan and berates him for contemplating working with Eggman again, making Shadow feel like an absolute degenerate. That would've been a really emotionally investing story, if you ask me.

(Also in my '06 remake, Eggman is then revealed as the true mastermind behind everything and takes over the universe by unleashing Solaris, but Silver uses the Chaos Emerald he has to bring Blaze, Marine, and Classic Sonic into their dimension, and you play as them in End of the World. Also Sally instead of Elise.)
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I... uh... what.

Sid Starkiller · Apr 27, 2020

qwertysonic said:

Unpopular opinion time: I actually like Sonic 06's story for how it felt like a conclusion for Shadow's story. In SA2 they introduce Shadow and he hates humanity and resents Maria's untimely death. In StH he learns more about his (now unnecessarily edgy past) and come to terms with it. In Sonic 06 he's made peace with his past and starts working for GUN. When he meets Mephiles and learns of his future and that humans will turn on him, he still chooses to fight to protect humanity. It feels like Shadow has grown as a character. And he's deeper than "Life sucks, lol kill all humans".

Of course all of this doesn't make up for the fact that Sonic 06 is a mess of a game that is generally not fun to play.
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Agreed, that and the music are the only things Sonic 06 did right. Rather than revert the true ending of ShTH to wring angst out of his past...again...they stick with it, having him truly let go of him hang-ups and move on, not even mentioning it. I think it's best summed up right before fighting Mephiles the first time: unlike Black Doom, where Shadow was willing to follow him even without liking the idea just for a clue about his past, when Mephiles tries to pull something similar Shadow dismisses him immediately, taking charge of his future.

Unfortunately, the rest of the game was so awful, and its reception so poor, and Shadow was sidelined permanently, but still, I'll give them a tiny sliver of credit.

JaxTH · Apr 27, 2020

I personally love the story of '06.

Or maybe I just really like Mephiles.

big smile · Apr 27, 2020

Linkabel said:

Again, to me it was just the writers way of adding a little bit of mystery and a way out for future installments. I don't see Sonic Team giving or even hinting at Sonic's origin going down like that.
But this is a great question to ask Sonic Team next time there's a Sonic fan event or when they're guests on the stream.
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Hmmm... I don’t think Sonic Team ever intended for Sonic to be the ultimate life form, but I do think they wanted players to think that maybe he was so they have a little hook to resolve in the next game. Sonic Team have made conflicting statements over the years. There was an interview where Iizuka said that he started planning for Shadow the game during SA2. But more recently, Shiro Maekawa said they had debates during Heroes over if they should bring back Shadow. So it seems they were as divided as the fans.

DigitalDuck · Apr 27, 2020

Sid Starkiller said:

Pengi said:

Sid Starkiller said:

Ew, God please, no stable time loops. Stable time loops always implicitly bring up the question of how the got started and stabilized, and what happens if they're broken. They never, EVER make sense if you put even 5 seconds of thought into them.
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They make sense in an immutable timeline.
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Again, no they don't. Whatever is the trigger of keeping it stable has no origin outside of the loop. Meaning something had to happen to trigger the loop in the first place, therefore the timeline isn't truly immutable. Look at the Terminator timeline. John Connor, leader of the resistance against Skynet, is only born because Kyle Reese, one of his followers, goes back in time to plow John's mom. And the computer chip recovered from the T-800 in T2 is what inspires Cyberdyne to create Skynet. So looking before the beginning of the loop, neither John Connor nor Cyberdyne exist, there's no impetus for the development of Skynet, and no reason for Kyle Reese to go back in time, meaning John Connor won't be born. What ridiculous contrivance caused the loop to start and stabilize? What would happen if the T-800 had actually killed Sarah in the first movie?

Hell, look at Sonic 06 and the blue Chaos Emerald! Either it only exists in the loop, meaning it just appeared out of nowhere when the loop began, or there's 2 blue Emeralds throughout the loop. The only way the game "fixes" this problem is that the loop is erased when Elise blows out Solaris' flame.
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It's time for this post again!

Writeup complete. *** WARNING - VERY, VERY, VERY LONG POST ***

First things first, let me explain how I'm analysing the story.

There are several ways of breaking apart time travel chronology; I've chosen timeline reconstruction, which allows you not only to see how a time loop can be stable, but also how it can be formed in the first place. The idea is to start with the “original timeline”, the one that “happened” before any time travel took place, and then follow each timeline as it unravels from there.
Of course, there'd actually be an infinite number of loops before it becomes fully stable, as minute differences in particles happen each time. However, we're only interested in the events here.

Notes:
I'm assuming three time “periods” – 1996, 2006, and 2206. It should be obvious which is applicable to any particular scene.
Only time travel backwards is of interest – time travel forwards is no different than just disappearing for a while.
I'm treating each portal as one “unit” – I.e. everything that enters the portal travels that timeline. It doesn't make any real difference, but it greatly simplifies the writing.
Once backwards time travel has occurred, there is no need to continue the current timeline – it'll be changed by the time travel. Only once a stable time loop is formed should the current timeline be continued.
Under standard alternate universe theory, ALL of these timelines happen. Under predestination/time loop theory, only the final timelime happens. Sonic '06 shows the final timeline.
Also the Last Story breaks all of this, so I'm ignoring it.

So, here we go:

TIMELINE 1

1996
Solaris is split by scientists.
Elise's father seals Mephiles in the Scepter of Darkness, and Iblis in Elise using the White Chaos Emerald. – Don't forget, this is the original timeline. Shadow and Silver haven't gone back in time yet. While it may not seem he was up to the task, the Duke seems to be absolutely determined to do whatever it takes to stop Iblis and Mephiles from escaping.

2006
Eggman travels to Soleanna; Sonic follows.
Rouge retrieves the Scepter of Darkness.
After a kerfuffle, the Scepter of Darkness is dropped.
Mephiles is reborn from Shadow's shadow.
Mephiles travels to the future alone. – As Shadow didn't seal Mephiles in the past, Mephiles has no idea who Shadow is, and has no need to exact his revenge on him.
Shadow collects the Red Chaos Emerald. – It's a bit of a stretch, but if Shadow doesn't get thrown about time by Mephiles, he may, in his travels, stumble across the Red Chaos Emerald. It's the only reason I can think of for it being otherwise “freaking nowhere”, and it's the only way it works later on in the analysis. It's improbable, but certainly not infeasible, so I'm sticking with it.
Eggman kidnaps Elise.
Sonic gives Eggman the Blue Chaos Emerald.
Eggman sends Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles to the future.
Shadow seeks Eggman for answers about Mephiles, learns about Solaris in 1996.
Elise, eventually realising Sonic isn't returning, cries and releases Iblis. – And even if it isn't over Sonic, she's bound to start crying sometime in her life.
Iblis does what large fiery demigods do.

2206
Mephiles arrives.
Mephiles collects the Violet Chaos Emerald.
Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles arrive.
Mephiles talks to Silver and Blaze. – More firepower, or just dramatic licence? You decide.
Mephiles travels to the past with Silver and Blaze.

TIMELINE 1A

2006
Silver arrives. Blaze and Mephiles arrive elsewhere.
Eggman travels to Soleanna; Sonic follows.
Rouge retrieves the Scepter of Darkness.
After a kerfuffle, the Scepter of Darkness is dropped.
Mephiles is reborn from Shadow's shadow.
Mephiles travels to the future alone.
Shadow collects the Red Chaos Emerald.
Eggman kidnaps Elise.
Sonic fights Silver.
Sonic gives Eggman the Blue Chaos Emerald.
Eggman sends Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles to the future.
Shadow seeks Eggman for answers about Mephiles, learns about Solaris in 1996.
Silver and Blaze collect the Blue Chaos Emerald from Eggman's Base.
Shadow fights Silver.
Shadow and Silver travel to the past using Shadow's Red and Silver's Blue. – This is why Shadow needs the Red Chaos Emerald. It seems to be established that it takes two Chaos Emeralds to create a time portal.

TIMELINE 2

1996
Shadow and Silver arrive.
Solaris is split by scientists.
Shadow seals Mephiles in the Scepter of Darkness.
Silver helps Elise's father seal Iblis in Elise using the White Chaos Emerald.
Shadow and Silver travel to the future using Shadow's Red and Silver's Blue, leaving Scepter of Darkness and Blue Chaos Emerald behind.

2006
Eggman travels to Soleanna; Sonic follows.
Rouge retrieves the Scepter of Darkness.
After a kerfuffle, the Scepter of Darkness is dropped.
Mephiles is reborn from Shadow's shadow.
Mephiles travels to the future with Shadow and Rouge. – Now Mephiles recognises Shadow, as he was the one that sealed him, not Duke.
Eggman kidnaps Elise.
Sonic gives Eggman the Blue Chaos Emerald.
Eggman sends Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles to the future.
Shadow and Silver arrive. – This will get more confusing as in later timelines they come back from the past they never go to.
Elise, eventually realising Sonic isn't returning, cries and releases Iblis.
Iblis does what large fiery demigods do.

2206
Shadow and Rouge arrive. Mephiles arrives elsewhere.
Mephiles collects the Violet Chaos Emerald.
Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles arrive.
Mephiles talks to Silver and Blaze.
Mephiles travels to the past with Silver and Blaze.

TIMELINE 2A

2006
Silver arrives. Blaze and Mephiles arrive elsewhere.
Eggman travels to Soleanna; Sonic follows.
Rouge retrieves the Scepter of Darkness.
After a kerfuffle, the Scepter of Darkness is dropped.
Mephiles is reborn from Shadow's shadow.
Mephiles travels to the future with Shadow and Rouge.
Eggman kidnaps Elise.
Sonic fights Silver.
Sonic gives Eggman the Blue Chaos Emerald.
Eggman sends Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles to the future.
Silver and Blaze collect the Blue Chaos Emerald from Eggman's Base.
Shadow and Silver arrive. – Yes, now there are two Silvers. But don't worry, that's perfectly normal in a still-forming time loop.
Elise, eventually realising Sonic isn't returning, cries and releases Iblis.
Iblis does what large fiery demigods do.

2206
Shadow and Rouge arrive, Mephiles arrives elsewhere.
Mephiles collects the Violet Chaos Emerald.
Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles arrive.
Mephiles talks to Silver and Blaze.
Mephiles travels to the past with Silver and Blaze.
--- Note that at this point, Timeline 2A repeats itself continuously, but with increasingly small changes (Convergence). Eventually those leaving for the past are identical to those arriving in the past, so I consider it a Stable Time Loop at that point and continue with the analysis.
Shadow and Rouge collect the Green Chaos Emerald.
Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles collect the Cyan Chaos Emerald.
Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Rouge travel to the past using Sonic's Cyan and Shadow's Green.

TIMELINE 2B

2006
...
Sonic gives Eggman the Blue Chaos Emerald.
Eggman sends Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles to the future.
Silver and Blaze collect the Blue Chaos Emerald from Eggman's Base.
Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles arrive.
Rouge arrives.
Rouge gives Omega the Green Chaos Emerald. – Rouge seems fairly smart to me; I'm sure she could work out, without seeing Omega in the future, that you can just tell a robot to hold on to something and then go to sleep for fifty years.
Sonic rescues Elise.
Silver attacks Sonic.
Without Shadow to save him, Sonic is killed. – Because Shadow is “still” in the future.
Elise cries and releases Iblis.
Iblis does what large fiery demigods do.
Shadow and Silver arrive. – Nice timing. Next time you return from the past you never went to, make sure you do it before the hero gets killed.

2206
Shadow and Rouge arrive, Mephiles arrives elsewhere.
Mephiles collects the Violet Chaos Emerald.
Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles arrive.
Mephiles talks to Silver and Blaze.
Mephiles travels to the past with Silver and Blaze. --> 2A
Shadow and Rouge find Omega on standby.
Shadow and Rouge collect the Green Chaos Emerald.
Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles collect the Cyan Chaos Emerald.
Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Rouge travel to the past using Sonic's Cyan and Shadow's Green. --> 2B
Shadow fights Crystal Meph.
Omega gives Shadow the Green Chaos Emerald.
Omega fights Crystal Meph.
Crystal Meph flees to the past, Shadow and Omega follow.

TIMELINE 2C

2006
...
Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles arrive.
Rouge arrives.
Rouge gives Omega the Green Chaos emerald.
Shadow and Omega arrive. Mephiles arrives elsewhere.
Shadow seeks Eggman for answers about Mephiles, learns about Solaris in 1996.
Sonic rescues Elise.
Silver attacks Sonic.
Shadow saves Sonic.
Eggman kidnaps Elise.
Shadow fights Silver.
Shadow and Silver travel to the past using Shadow's Green and Silver's Blue.

TIMELINE 3

1996
Shadow and Silver arrive.
Solaris is split by scientists.
Shadow seals Mephiles in the Scepter of Darkness.
Silver helps Elise's father seal Iblis in Elise using the White Chaos Emerald.
Shadow and Silver travel to the future using Shadow's Green and Silver's Blue, leaving Scepter of Darkness and Blue Chaos Emerald behind. – And after time has run its course, the once-necessary Red Chaos Emerald is now nowhere in the story at all.

2006
Eggman travels to Soleanna; Sonic follows.
Rouge retrieves the Scepter of Darkness.
After a kerfuffle, the Scepter of Darkness is dropped.
Mephiles is reborn from Shadow's shadow.
Mephiles travels to the future with Shadow and Rouge.
Eggman kidnaps Elise.
Sonic gives Eggman the Blue Chaos Emerald.
Eggman sends Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles to the future.
Shadow and Silver arrive.
Elise, eventually realising Sonic isn't returning, cries and releases Iblis.
Iblis does what large fiery demigods do.

2206
Shadow and Rouge arrive. Mephiles arrives elsewhere.
Mephiles collects the Violet Chaos Emerald.
Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles arrive.
Mephiles talks to Silver and Blaze.
Mephiles travels to the past with Silver and Blaze.
--- Timelines 3A-3C repeat here as 2A-2C did…

TIMELINE 3C

2006
...
Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles arrive.
Rouge arrives.
Rouge gives Omega the Green Chaos emerald.
Shadow and Omega arrive.
Shadow seeks Eggman for answers about Mephiles, learns about Solaris in 1996.
Sonic rescues Elise.
Silver attacks Sonic.
Shadow saves Sonic.
Eggman kidnaps Elise.
Shadow fights Silver.
Shadow and Silver travel to the past using Shadow's Green and Silver's Blue. --> 3
Shadow and Silver arrive.
Sonic and Silver don't make it to the Egg Carrier on time.
Sonic travels to the past using Sonic's Cyan and Silver's White.

TIMELINE 3D (FINAL)

1996
Shadow and Silver arrive.
Solaris is split by scientists.
Shadow seals Mephiles in the Scepter of Darkness.
Silver helps Elise's father seal Iblis in Elise using the White Chaos Emerald.
Shadow and Silver travel to the future using Shadow's Green and Silver's Blue, leaving Scepter of Darkness and Blue Chaos Emerald behind.

2006
Silver arrives. Blaze and Mephiles arrive elsewhere.
Eggman travels to Soleanna; Sonic follows.
Rouge retrieves the Scepter of Darkness.
After a kerfuffle, the Scepter of Darkness is dropped.
Mephiles is reborn from Shadow's shadow.
Mephiles travels to the future with Shadow and Rouge.
Eggman kidnaps Elise.
Sonic fights Silver.
Sonic gives Eggman the Blue Chaos Emerald.
Eggman sends Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles to the future.
Silver and Blaze collect the Blue Chaos Emerald from Eggman's Base.
Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles arrive.
Rouge arrives.
Rouge gives Omega the Green Chaos Emerald.
Shadow and Omega arrive.
Shadow seeks Eggman for answers about Mephiles, learns about Solaris in 1996.
Sonic rescues Elise.
Silver attacks Sonic.
Shadow saves Sonic.
Eggman kidnaps Elise.
Shadow fights Silver.
Shadow and Silver travel to the past using Shadow's Green and Silver's Blue. --> 3
Sonic arrives.
Shadow and Silver arrive.
Sonic rescues Elise from the Egg Carrier.
Sonic and Silver don't make it to the Egg Carrier on time.
Sonic travels to the past using Sonic's Cyan and Silver's White. --> 3D
Silver and Blaze travel to the future through the same portal.
Crystal Meph collects Yellow Chaos Emerald.
Shadow fights Crstal Meph II.
Crystal Meph steals Shadow's Green Chaos Emerald during the fight.
(Anything that happens past this point is part of the last story, which I've previously mentioned messes everything up.)

2206
Shadow and Rouge arrive, Mephiles arrives elsewhere.
Mephiles collects the Violet Chaos Emerald.
Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles arrive.
Mephiles talks to Silver and Blaze.
Mephiles travels to the past with Silver and Blaze. --> 3A
Shadow and Rouge find Omega on standby.
Shadow and Rouge collect the Green Chaos Emerald.
Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles collect the Cyan Chaos Emerald.
Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Rouge travel to the past using Sonic's Cyan and Shadow's Green. --> 3B
Shadow fights Crystal Meph.
Omega gives Shadow the Green Chaos Emerald.
Omega fights Crystal Meph.
Crystal Meph flees to the past, Shadow and Omega follow. --> 3C
Silver and Blaze arrive.
Silver fights Iblis.
Blaze seals Iblis within her and sends herself to another dimension using the Cyan and White Chaos Emeralds.

And there you have it. Anything you feel needs expanding upon, feel free to let me know.

EDIT: >2000 words. That's it, my next fifty posts are all one-liners about breasts.

qwertysonic · Apr 27, 2020

Sid Starkiller said:

that and the music are the only things Sonic 06 did right.
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Yes! the music is legit amazing.

The Joebro64 · Apr 27, 2020

CynicalSonicGuy said:

TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64 said:

qwertysonic said:

Unpopular opinion time: I actually like Sonic 06's story for how it felt like a conclusion for Shadow's story. In SA2 they introduce Shadow and he hates humanity and resents Maria's untimely death. In StH he learns more about his (now unnecessarily edgy past) and come to terms with it. In Sonic 06 he's made peace with his past and starts working for GUN. When he meets Mephiles and learns of his future and that humans will turn on him, he still chooses to fight to protect humanity. It feels like Shadow has grown as a character. And he's deeper than "Life sucks, lol kill all humans".

Of course all of this doesn't make up for the fact that Sonic 06 is a mess of a game that is generally not fun to play.
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I completely agree with everything you said.

I actually feel like Shadow's story in '06 would have been really something good if it'd added a sense of reluctance to work with GUN because he still has lingering resentment over Maria. In the '06 remake I've envisioned in my head for the past few years, Shadow genuinely considers joining Mephiles, and chooses to help Eggman get the Scepter of Darkness because Eggman goads him into it by referencing his hatred. Then after sealing Mephiles in like he did at the end of his story, Rouge reveals that she knew of Shadow's plan and berates him for contemplating working with Eggman again, making Shadow feel like an absolute degenerate. That would've been a really emotionally investing story, if you ask me.

(Also in my '06 remake, Eggman is then revealed as the true mastermind behind everything and takes over the universe by unleashing Solaris, but Silver uses the Chaos Emerald he has to bring Blaze, Marine, and Classic Sonic into their dimension, and you play as them in End of the World. Also Sally instead of Elise.)
Click to expand...

I... uh... what.
Click to expand...

Believe me, that's barely scratching the surface of my '06 remake.

Josh · Apr 27, 2020

I just saw a post complaining about how "all through the 2000s," "everyone" was in perfect agreement that SA2 was the best Sonic game, but now this younger generation who didn't even PLAY Sonic until the 2010s doesn't see it that way.

It took me a minute to even parse what he was saying. Some of the kids who came on with Adventure are now upset that the generation AFTER them doesn't have reverence for THEIR childhood favorites.

We're through the looking glass here, folks.

The Joebro64 · Apr 27, 2020

Josh said:

I just saw a post complaining about how "all through the 2000s," "everyone" was in perfect agreement that SA2 was the best Sonic game, but now this younger generation who didn't even PLAY Sonic until the 2010s doesn't see it that way.

It took me a minute to even parse what he was saying. Some of the kids who came on with Adventure are now upset that the generation AFTER them doesn't have reverence for THEIR childhood favorites.

We're through the looking glass here, folks.
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I honestly never really liked SA2 that much, fwiw - and I was part of the Sonic fans who got into the series in the 2000s! Sonic's/Shadow's levels are good, but they took the few bad aspects of Knuckles'/Rouge's (almost entirely good!) SA1 gameplay and multiplied them by 10, and I don't know what they were thinking with Tails'/Eggman's mechs being extremely slow and clunky. If I ever have to name the most overrated game of all time, it would be SA2.

Gestalt · Apr 27, 2020

SA2 has already started going through puberty, but SA1 still has what it takes to be the best video game ever made. As for Sonic '06, fix it first, then remake it. Most of the time it makes you go phew! or wtf? (E.g. sliding on the water in Wave Ocean. To this day, I have no idea how he does that.) But this is more due to how broken the game is rather than technical limitations. The only game that needs a full-blown remake is SA1. It's the true successor of the classic trilogy and thus deserves it the most. Sonic Adventure = the real Sonic 4

CynicalSonicGuy · Apr 28, 2020

Multi Battler said:

SA2 has already started going through puberty, but SA1 still has what it takes to be the best video game ever made. As for Sonic '06, fix it first, then remake it. Most of the time it makes you go phew! or wtf? (E.g. sliding on the water in Wave Ocean. To this day, I have no idea how he does that.) But this is more due to how broken the game is rather than technical limitations. The only game that needs a full-blown remake is SA1. It's the true successor of the classic trilogy and thus deserves it the most. Sonic Adventure = the real Sonic 4
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I mean, Sonic 06 is getting a fan-made remake in Unity, and it's making pretty fast progress so far. So there's that.

As someone who loves the Adventure games to death, I'd never want an official remake of Adventure 1, though. SEGA would probably go full monkey's paw with that shit. Sonic Team would not remake the game, but de-make it, and strip away everything that made it Sonic Adventure in an attempt to make it more appealing to a wider audience. I'd fully expect them to remove the Adventure fields, remove the Chao Gardens, remove the substages and minigames, make Sonic the only playable character, and have the gameplay/level design of Forces (basically a watered down boost style game that's mostly 2D with awkward, blocky, puzzle 'stop-n-go' platforming). Heck, Iizuka might even want to shove in the Wisps/Color Powers, and Kishimoto would probably find a way to turn Perfect Chaos into yet another re-skin of the Nega-Wisp Armor from Colors. Not to mention, the story could potentially end up getting re-written by Pontac and Graff, and scenes like Gamma's death could lose all the emotional impact the original had.

I think it would be for the best to leave the game alone and move on.

Vanishing Vision · Apr 28, 2020

CynicalSonicGuy said:

Sonic Team would not remake the game, but de-make it, and strip away everything that made it Sonic Adventure in an attempt to make it more appealing to a wider audience. I'd fully expect them to remove the Adventure fields, remove the Chao Gardens, remove the substages and minigames, make Sonic the only playable character, and have the gameplay/level design of Forces (basically a watered down boost style game that's mostly 2D with awkward, blocky, puzzle 'stop-n-go' platforming). Heck, Iizuka might even want to shove in the Wisps/Color Powers, and Kishimoto would probably find a way to turn Perfect Chaos into yet another re-skin of the Nega-Wisp Armor from Colors. Not to mention, the story could potentially end up getting re-written by Pontac and Graff, and scenes like Gamma's death could lose all the emotional impact the original had.
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I've heard people say things like this before, and I honestly think there is zero chance of this happening. I think we'd get the hypothetical "3D Classic Sonic" perfect dream game before this supposed "Anti-Adventure" that checks off all the Sonic Fan Anger boxes.

I could understand fears of a proposed SA3 being closer to that, you know, "Adventure" in name only, but what on Earth would Sonic Team gain from a "remake" that has nothing at all to do with the original game? The only changes I would expect from an SA1 remake would be redoing the cutscenes with the current cast, and maybe adding/tweaking some moves.

CynicalSonicGuy · Apr 28, 2020

Vanishing Vision said:

CynicalSonicGuy said:

Sonic Team would not remake the game, but de-make it, and strip away everything that made it Sonic Adventure in an attempt to make it more appealing to a wider audience. I'd fully expect them to remove the Adventure fields, remove the Chao Gardens, remove the substages and minigames, make Sonic the only playable character, and have the gameplay/level design of Forces (basically a watered down boost style game that's mostly 2D with awkward, blocky, puzzle 'stop-n-go' platforming). Heck, Iizuka might even want to shove in the Wisps/Color Powers, and Kishimoto would probably find a way to turn Perfect Chaos into yet another re-skin of the Nega-Wisp Armor from Colors. Not to mention, the story could potentially end up getting re-written by Pontac and Graff, and scenes like Gamma's death could lose all the emotional impact the original had.
Click to expand...

I've heard people say things like this before, and I honestly think there is zero chance of this happening. I think we'd get the hypothetical "3D Classic Sonic" perfect dream game before this supposed "Anti-Adventure" that checks off all the Sonic Fan Anger boxes.

I could understand fears of a proposed SA3 being closer to that, you know, "Adventure" in name only, but what on Earth would Sonic Team gain from a "remake" that has nothing at all to do with the original game? The only changes I would expect from an SA1 remake would be redoing the cutscenes with the current cast, and maybe adding/tweaking some moves.
Click to expand...

Remember Sonic 4? That game was so lazy and uninspired, yet it carried such a big name regardless because SEGA used that name for easy sales.

I just don't see Sonic Team putting the proper effort into it, and considering that Sonic games have been getting smaller budgets lately, I doubt SEGA would give them the resources needed to make a faithful remake. It's much easier and more cost efficient to just build things off of the previous mainline game than making a faithful recreation of the original. SEGA's Ryu ga Gotoku studio also did this with Yakuza Kiwami 1 and 2. Yakuza Kiwami recycled the assets and gameplay of Yakuza 0, and Kiwami 2 was built off of Yakuza 6. Neither of these were perfect recreations of the original Yakuza 1 and 2, as Kiwami 1 changed the story by adding the Majima Everywhere system for fan pandering, which changed the dark tone of the original game, and Kiwami 2 straight up cut content from the original PS2 game, skipping an entire chapter of the story and removing an entire hub area that was in the original PS2 version. You know what was added in its place? More Majima content to pander to the newcomers that started with Yakuza 0.

Remember, SEGA considers Sonic Forces to be a 'success', and so they'd probably think it'd be easy money to build off of that 'success' and use the Sonic Adventure name to rake in easy cash from the fans as a bonus. I simply do not trust them to do it justice.

Nova · Apr 28, 2020

CynicalSonicGuy said:

SEGA would probably go full monkey's paw with that shit. Sonic Team would not remake the game, but de-make it, and strip away everything that made it Sonic Adventure in an attempt to make it more appealing to a wider audience. I'd fully expect them to remove the Adventure fields, remove the Chao Gardens, remove the substages and minigames, make Sonic the only playable character, and have the gameplay/level design of Forces (basically a watered down boost style game that's mostly 2D with awkward, blocky, puzzle 'stop-n-go' platforming). Heck, Iizuka might even want to shove in the Wisps/Color Powers, and Kishimoto would probably find a way to turn Perfect Chaos into yet another re-skin of the Nega-Wisp Armor from Colors. Not to mention, the story could potentially end up getting re-written by Pontac and Graff, and scenes like Gamma's death could lose all the emotional impact the original had.
Click to expand...

I'm firmly in the 'don't bother' camp as far as remaking Sonic Adventure goes, but this post really shows where the cynical in your username comes from!

I really don't think even SEGA are that stupid - remake the game due to fan demand but leave out absolutely everything that makes it what it is? I could see some negative changes being made but not quite to that extent, ahaha.

Vanishing Vision · Apr 28, 2020

There is one thing that I would like to see out of an SA1 remake: fixing the scoring system. I believe it could be done in three steps of declining importance.

1. Remove the random ring boxes. This alone would fix the single biggest problem with SA1 score attack play, but for more fun:
2. Increase the enemy values. The pathetic 10 points enemies cough up means there's no reason to bother with them, and related to this:
3. Add a basic enemy chain system. The easiest way would be to use the SA2 system, award the base values for enemies killed, and then a bonus based on the number killed when the chain ends.

The Joebro64 · Apr 28, 2020

All Sonic Team needs to do if they're remaking Adventure is:

Fix the camera

Update the graphics.

Wipe Big off the face of the Earth

Make Amy feel light and easy to control, not like a 4000 lb piece of broccoli

Make Gamma's levels a bit longer and less repetitive

An Adventure remake would be easy. I'm surprised no fans have tried to do it yet (e.g., use Generations like the '06 Project).

The younger fandom, and how they learned from exactly none of our mistakes.

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