The younger fandom, and how they learned from exactly none of our mistakes.

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Josh, Jan 6, 2020.

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  1. For the record, I actually don't hate Shadow's game or Forces, but they're very flawed games. My main issue with Shadow's game is the mission system. It's like they took the worst part of Heroes and built the whole game around that, which I didn't like. If it wasn't for that, I'd probably enjoy the game a whole lot more. As for Forces, that game wasn't terrible, but it was just a huge letdown in just about every way possible. Never trust CGI trailers.
     
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  2. Josh

    Josh

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    But see, that's the tough thing about objectivity in something as subjective as video games. I think it's safe to objectively say that, say, Sonic 2 is "well-designed" in that it executes well on what it's trying to be. By the same token, I think we can objectively say things like: Sonic 06 has lengthy load times, a more realistic setting, a plot that's more serious and character-driven, and an... above-average amount of glitches. It's fair to say it objectively DOESN'T pull off what it's trying to accomplish, and interviews with the developers can back up that claim But we can't objectively state that any of these, or anything else about it, is enough to render it NOT FUN, and for some people, some combination of those elements (say, the realistic, serious tone and story, the open-ended level design) might make it BETTER. I personally find Sonic 06 endlessly fascinating and kind of tragic for what it did to the series. I find it an enjoyable experience on some level. One player's minor nitpick might be someone else's unforgivable game-ruining flaw, which might be core to the appeal of the game itself for someone else.

    Yeah, this sort of thing absolutely grinds my gears. I don't want to call it "revisionist history," because I don't think most of them are doing it intentionally. But this idea that EVERYBODY loved the Adventure games, until those gosh-dang YOUTUBERS came along in like 2012 and INDOCTRINATED EVERYONE with their INCORRECT SONIC OPINIONS. We know that Arin Hanson was hardly the first person to hate on 3D Sonic games, but for people in a certain age range, he might've SEEMED like the first person to do it. That's why I try to push back on that notion to signal that no, it really WAS an extreme downturn for Sonic in the mainstream. Like you said, the evidence is easy to find if you look for it:

    Entertainment Weekly reviewed Sonic Adventure 2: Battle in 2002, and said it, "Offers a glimpse of brilliance... but lacks the magic that made the original Genesis classic a Mario-thumping masterpiece." Game Informer opened their Sonic Heroes review in 2004 with, "I think it's telling that what was, during the Genesis days, one of my very favorite franchises now evokes an extremely negative reaction. As an aging game icon, Sonic has been in decline for years." I don't cite these sources as evidence that, like, those WERE bad games and people's childhood memories are WRONG. I cite them to show that freakin' YOUTUBERS did not ruin Sonic's reputation. Outside of the insular Sonic fandom, Sonic's star was falling YEARS before 06. It was slipping as early as Adventure 2.

    Yeah, and there's actually a parallel that can be drawn here. Remember when Sonic 4 came out, and was reviewed by most major outlets and people outside the hardcore demographic as if it was this glorious, long-overdue return to form even though it wasn't remotely close? Sonic Mania is KIND OF like that for those who are significantly bigger fans of 3D Sonic, except now, tons of Sonic fans ALSO love it.

    This is just a generalization. I know old-school Sonic has loads more depth than this, but here's a thought experiment. I'll try to see this from the perspective of someone who grew up with Adventure 2 and Sonic X, and didn't HATE the Genesis games, but always saw them as the outdated origin of my favorite series...

    When it seemed everyone in the entire world insisted that Sonic games didn't need complex STORIES or CHARACTERS, they were just supposed to be stylistic speedy platformers with a cutesy little Sonic running through loop-de-loops, and Sega ACTUALLY did that, and everyone loved it and insisted, "AHA, SEE, THIS IS WHAT SONIC SHOULD'VE BEEN ALL ALONG," I can see why it might upset them for a lot of the same reasons.

    I'd be worried that the elements that made me enjoy the series might be gone, the Sonic I grew up loving might never come back. I'd feel like the series had been replaced by this awful parody of itself, and I know how that feels, because I actually DID kind of feel that way in 2006.

    But I think this once again comes back to Forces. I can't help but notice that it took several years for it to build up to this point, for it to start poisoning the reputation of earlier games in the series. And I think that's because the longer we go without a new Sonic game, the more Forces' abject lack of substance becomes apparent. If Forces had better satisfied that desire for a good 3D Sonic game, I don't think Mania's positive reception or Classic Sonic's resurgence would've burned so badly.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2020
  3. Gestalt

    Gestalt

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    It helps if you're actually playing these games and not just talk about them or listen to their soundtracks. Just saying. The other day I was playing Sonic Forces for a little bit and I was straight up not having a good time. Most of the time I had no idea what I was even doing (besides running in a quote unquote straight line). Team Sonic Racing? Totally bummed out about the lack of custom cups. These games need more customization, for God's sake (level length, playable characters, bgm, etc.) I want my freedom back :(

    In retrospect, SA2 was the most fun, closely followed by Generations and Sonic 3. Though it's been awhile since I last played Heroes.
     
  4. Master Emerald

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    No amount of customization could save Forces, though.
     
  5. I think he's talking about integrating Generations-style customization (change abilities and music) with Forces. That'd be pretty cool.
     
  6. Master Emerald

    Master Emerald

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    He probably meant that, but the level design is horrible, the levels are short and the Switch version (the version that sold the most!) looks worse than Generations did on 360.

    So again, no amount of customization could save Forces.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2020
  7. Gestalt

    Gestalt

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    Yeah, probably not. A small consolation, I know, but a consolation nonetheless. Nevertheless, I have a few suggestions for improvement:

    1. ERASE all automation
    2. ...that's all.
     
  8. TheManchildMine

    TheManchildMine

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    I don't care at all if Sonic games are like the Classic games, Adventure style, or Boost-to-win, or some new style, I don't care if the plot is edgy or "childlike", I just want a good game that's fun to play. There's no "perfect" style of Sonic game, and I just wish that people would realize this. They only feel like the style they grew up with is perfect without any flaws and it's the "correct" way to make a Sonic game. I personally love all 3 major styles of Sonic games WHEN THEY WERE MADE BY PEOPLE WHO KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING. Heck, it might be because I grew up with games of all 3 styles. I don't know.

    I also just wished that they kept the nostalgia stuff completely separate from the main series, I'm talking about nostalgia for nostalgia's sake, not "returning things to create a sense of continuity between games", I'm actually ok with Green Hill being a place that returns from game to game, as long as it isn't screaming "HEY DO YOU REMEMBER GREEN HILL, THE BEST SONIC ZONE, THE ONE THAT STARTED IT ALL.", I could ALMOST forgive Sonic Forces with how they handled Green Hill, they actually put a somewhat decent spin on what we are used to. What I don't forgive though, is it being incredibly overused. I would still like creativity and new innovative areas to be added so every game is not just the same 3 places over and over with a different plot. But, I'm ok with Green Hill existing to make it feel like these games are taking place on the same planet.

    Speaking of that, they can't decide on an art style, or whether the inhabitants are animals or humans, or whether the trees are realistic or from Minecraft, just make up your damn mind Sonic Team. Sonic Team can't make everyone happy, that's the thing. There are too many people who want 2d games, or adventure style games, or that one kid who screams and wants a 3d environment classic sonic game, I can go on and on. Sonic Team should really just focus on making a good game and not cater to a specific set of fans who grew up with these particular games.

    The so-called "dark age of sonic" I would say doesn't REALLY exist, loads of people say it is the post-adventure to modern era, some people say it is the modern era as a whole, some people say it is the entirety of 3d Sonic as a whole. There's no objectively right answer and most of these claims are based on nostalgia bias. Sure we can all agree that 06 was objectively bad, but, some other games in this time frame can be classified as subjectively good, along with some subjectively bad ones, along with some mixed ones.

    TL;DR: There's no "correct" way a Sonic game should be made, people should really realize this and also stop blindly hating on the stuff outside of their "childhood era" due to nostalgia bias. Sonic Team right now should really focus on making good games and not focus on catering to the people who grew up with a specific set of Sonic games, Sonic Team should just ignore all of the conflicting arguments about this series and what is really "the best type of sonic game" and not base their games off of that, they should make what they think will be the right call in judgement.

    P.S: IM IDEALIZING A WORLD WHERE SEGA IS ACTUALLY COMPETENT WITH HOW THEY DEAL WITH SONIC, OK?
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2020
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  9. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    @TheManchildMine, you're offering quite the valid argument to this whole matter.

    There's only one problem with all that... SEGA is a corporation.
    They care more about making money, rather than making great games.
    Them catering to the fanbase or specific groups has the goal of getting as much money from those folks as possible.
    You, me and MANY others here and out there also want reality to play the way you stated.
    If only it were that easy to achieve...
     
  10. TheManchildMine

    TheManchildMine

    A Casual Snoc Fan Member
    I understand what you mean, I agree that SEGA will put money over quality. So, I guess this would be, at least my ideal way that SEGA COULD handle Sonic, but it is likely not going to ever happen, due to corporations and all that. I actually added a P.S while you most likely were writing that as that exact same thought entered my mind.
    I really do want the best out of Sonic, it just sucks that profit matters more than quality.
     
  11. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    I saw the P.S., but felt like answering that way all the same.
    No need to take it personal, it was only my honest opinion.
     
  12. Pengi

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    I think with Sonic, they're at a point where they'd probably make more money with a great game.

    Tomb Raider, Crash Bandicoot, Mortal Kombat, these are all franchises that started big, but people moved away from them when the standard of quality dropped. All three of them made big comebacks when they invested the staff, time and money into making big flashy well-made games that reminded the audience why they liked those franchises in the first place.
     
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  13. RDNexus

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    That's what I've been trying to say for quite a while already.
    SEGA should try their best at giving Sonic reboot treatment.
    It might be what the franchise really needs at this moment.
     
  14. MastaSys

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    The last thing this franchise needs is another continuity that will be dropped sooner or later. Boom-style or Archie-style drop, doesn't matter which.
     
  15. Pengi

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    A story/continuity reboot would be unnecessary. Unleashed, Colours, Lost World etc. were all self-contained adventures with no prior knowledge of the series lore required. And Sonic Boom is too recent in consumer memory. Sega already fired that bullet and missed the target.
     
  16. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    But I'd like a story/continuity reboot, as the continuity started going down the drain, to me, from Heroes onwards.
    It may seem something minor to many of you, but I like my stories with as proper of a timeline/continuity as possible.
     
  17. Sid Starkiller

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    Good for you. I'd like them to throw away 3D entirely and stick to expanding upon Mania, but they won't, and shouldn't, make decisions based on what one person wants.
     
  18. Pengi

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    That's fine. But "I want this" isn't the same as "Sega should do this" or "doing this could help the franchise".

    I want Sega to bring back Metal Knuckles, but I don't think it will have any impact on the sales or reception of the series.
     
  19. Sid Starkiller

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    That was actually one of my very few complaints about Mania, specifically for & Knuckles Mode. If the whole thing was a self-insert fanfic Knuckles was presenting as real to the critters of Angel Island, I would've thought he'd swap out Metal Sonic for Metal Knuckles.
     
  20. Overlord

    Overlord

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    No more reboots. We've had several since 2006, we don't need yet another.
     
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