The younger fandom, and how they learned from exactly none of our mistakes.

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Josh, Jan 6, 2020.

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  1. I think part of why a lot of people are turning against games like Colors and Generations more and more is because of the current state of the series in general. Instead of improving upon what those games built up with their gameplay, they went backwards and started downgrading everything, and when people start noticing all these glaring issues in Lost World and Forces, they start noticing it more in Colors and Generations.

    Had Sonic Team followed up with some quality games with more interesting stories (the writing for the games doesn't have to be a mind-blowing masterpiece or anything, just something on par with at least the Adventure games or even the Storybook games), and had started allowing more characters playable other than just Sonic and alternate universe Classic Sonic in the mainline games again, maybe things would be different. At the very least, the folks who didn't like those games could just shrug them off and say, 'well Colors was a little breather game after the dark ages for the Wii, and Generations was just celebrating the 20th Anniversary', and let them slide, but no, that's not what happened.

    The 3D games we've been getting post-Generations have been painfully mediocre, and many of the issues people have with those games seem to have stemmed from Colors, Generations, and to an extent, Unleashed. Hell we've had the same FINAL BOSS 3 times in a row, and that boss originated from Colors. So when you put it into perspective, it's not really all that surprising to me that people are turning against the game. Morio Kishimoto is a bad director for this series, and I think it's time for him to step down.

    Another factor is that there's less games coming out to distract the fans on top of that; so they have more time to stop and analyze all the issues they have with the series, and unrest is building up in the midst of the news drought and the looming fear of another disappointment from Sonic Team, which in turn is making the fanbase split off into even more factions, and are becoming more at each other's throats again over social media as a result.

    SEGA's dug the franchise into this weird hole with how poorly they've handled the series over the past 20 years or so, and now this split fanbase is the result.
     
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  2. Josh

    Josh

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    Excellent post, and that's what's remarkable about all this, and why I framed this topic like I did. We're seeing the younger fandom go through the exact same cycle we already went through. A series of mostly well-received 3D Sonic games (SA1/SA2 then, Colors/Generations now) eventually become the subject of derision when sequels completely ruin the formula. And what's hilarious is that the titles that many of us saw as products of Sonic's downfall, many of them see as precious, formative experiences, and what many of us saw as Sonic's triumphant (albeit all-too temporary) return to form, some of them see as... products of Sonic's downfall!

    STRANGE, isn't it!? No wonder Forces turned out like it did. Trying to focus group a Sonic game at this point must be like the Twitch Plays Pokémon of game design.

    EDIT: And now I've gone back to read my posts on page 1, and figured out that I'm literally restating things I said about four months ago. Whee!
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
  3. Multi Battler

    Multi Battler

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    My main complaint with games like SA1 and 2 has always been that there were too many glitches and that they didn’t age well (which is not quite true, Sonic Adventure 2 Battle looks and plays the same as it did back in 2001) while the Boost games, on the other hand, blew everyone away because of how gorgeously presented they were. But they were also undeniably lacking something. SA2 for example can be enjoyed right away, whereas in the Boost games you’ll probably end up getting frustrated real fast if you’re not actively looking for ways to enjoy them. One quick example: I have no favourite level in Sonic Colours or Lost World, instead there are a handful of levels that I can keep coming back to when I’m in the mood for it. I feel there’s a great lack of spontaneity surrounding those titles.
     
  4. Mana

    Mana

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    I understand. Sorry, I just thought that was a political answer when I first read it but it might have been the truth. You're right.


    Alright, sorry I was just upset I had to do further research to find the same answers but if the source was bad you weren't wrong to call me out on it. Megaman 11 selling a million copies after such a long hiatus isn't really much to me, especially when the average Sonic or Mario game sells much more but that isn't any number to be ashamed of either I agree.

    My bad, bro.

    In response to the conversation going on above this one, above this one this entire topic reminds me how divided the Sonic fandom is because I loved Lost World when its gameplay was working properly and wanted a sequel in 2017 instead of Forces.

    I didn't even realize it was so hated on here.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2020
  5. SuperSnoopy

    SuperSnoopy

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    Wait, for real? I thought I was the only one, damn. We should totally form a club or something.
     
  6. TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64

    TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64

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    Here’s the thing about Lost World: when it works, it’s absolutely spectacular, a blast to play, and pure Sonic. When it doesn’t, it’s hellish monotony, unoriginal, and bland.
     
  7. Josh

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    If you could take the controls and physics of the 3DS version, and combine them with the level design of the Wii U version, you'd have a pretty decent game.

    Also, I _really_ think if there was ever a time to use the old-school Sonic design in a 3D game, it was there. It used classic aesthetics, classic badniks, the figure-8, re-introduced the spin-dash... Classic Sonic was conspicuous by his absence. Using the old design would've helped signal that this was meant to be a different approach to 3D Sonic, and the boost style, which had been polished over the course of several games, wasn't just being abandoned. While Lost World itself would've still been a let-down, there was plenty of room to improve on that style.
     
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  8. Beltway

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    They didn’t use the Genesis design, but I recall they did change Sonic’s model to be closer to Classic, like having shorter legs and spines (somewhat like the design in Runners).

    Also, one of the concept art pieces from the game for what it’s worth:

    [​IMG]
     
  9. I'll also say that Lost World is pretty decent when the stages are pure 3D, but the 2D sections and the gimmick levels really watered down the overall experience. Stages like Desert Ruins Zone 1 and Silent Forest Zone 1 were great, for example. It's just a shame we didn't get more levels like those in the game. And yeah, Classic Sonic definitely fits Lost World's art style a lot better than Modern Sonic, and I usually play the PC version with the Classic Sonic mod. Since they've already split the series, between the 'Classic' and 'Modern' styles, they should just go all in with it, and have two teams: one for Classic-style games, and one for modern-style games. That way fans of both camps each get something, and casual fans can enjoy both.
     
  10. Josh

    Josh

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    Ooh, speaking of, this is a bit off-topic, but do you have a link for that Classic Sonic in Lost World mod? I've been trying to find it for the past few days, but the YouTube channel that seemed to link to it removed it.
     
  11. That's odd, I can't find it online either. Not to worry, though! I've uploaded it here: http://www.mediafire.com/file/g7zb9vrxc7v29s6/classic_sonic_model.zip/file
     
  12. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

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    I don't think Lost World really followed the classic aesthetic. It's more of a caricature of the classic games. It's stylized in a much more clean and simplistic way, and doesn't have the intricately detailed abstract styles or the stylized pseudo-realism in the classic stages. Some parts are better than others though. The environments look like plastic toys, really.

    I think Heroes was much closer to a true classic-inspired aesthetic.
     
  13. Agreed. Lost World's art style never really meshed well with me. It looks more like a Mario game than a Sonic game. I much prefer the look of the Adventure games, Heroes, Unleashed, Colors, and Generations over it. Forces seems to be a weird hybrid of both, and because of that it still doesn't feel quite right to me, either.
     
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  14. Sid Starkiller

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    I think it's more that Lost World took specific elements of classic Sonic, like the badnik designs, capsules, and animal buddies, more than using that aesthetic everywhere. The environments may have tried to ape the style of classic Sonic, but failed.

    As far as a classic/modern hybrid Sonic, I think the Nendoroid Sonic was going for that look, and pulled it off pretty well. Google it if you haven't seen it.
     
  15. Nendoroid Sonic is a bit too cutesy and short. Needs sharper quills and more attitude too. I think from a design standpoint, Sonic always needs to have a bit of 'coolness' and 'edge' to him to make him standout from being just another typical Japanese mascot character. I think the biggest problem with modern Sonic's design is that he has that his eyebrows always look 'angry' with that mark between his eyes always being present. It's really odd. In Sonic X, Sonic didn't have it all the time, and he looked better for it, imo.
     
  16. Dek Rollins

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    Nendoroid Sonic takes the wrong elements and tried mashing them together. The legs are super short, which doesn't even match the majority of classic Sonic artwork (I mean, they made him look like he's Tails' height), and the body is a longer, flattened oval, which makes the legs appear even shorter and emphasizes the Tails proportions. It doesn't look right.

    Agreed that he shouldn't have that mark between his eyes all the time, and I personally think it looks dumb. They just put this slit in the middle of his brow, it doesn't look like an actual wrinkle or anything. I mentioned in the post I made in the "2 designs" thread that I think they should never put that in 3D models because it usually looks bad in them.
     
  17. TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64

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    Why can't Sega just go the Mario Odyssey route and have a system where you can choose which Sonic design you want to play as and mix/match parts from different designs? I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard to implement; they did something similar with the Avatar in Forces, and plenty of fans (including myself) would go nuts over that opportunity.
     
  18. Blue Spikeball

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    This is my problem with Classic Sonic in Generations and Forces. They made him look too cutesy, both in design and demeanor, making him come off more as a soulless corporate mascot and less like MD-era Sonic to me. Didn't like that ugly brow line they gave him either. I guess they did that to make him look more detailed, but the classic design looks the best with more simplistic eyes like in the Sonic Team logo IMO.

    I appreciated that the Mania FMVs and shorts gave him more personality. Even though he still didn't speak in them, his demeanor gave off a more cool and confident vibe, like you would expect from the guy who started the "mascot with attitude" trend.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2020
  19. Frostav

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    The biggest problem with Lost World's aesthetic is that Sonic's levels were never meant to be random assortments of obstacles in the middle of nowhere/the sky. They were zones. In a gaming market where worldbuilding in platformers was uncommon, stuff like all of S3&K's levels being huge zones in a cohesive world must have been some crazy shit (I dunno I was like -1 years old when it came out :V). So yeah, as much as I dislike Heroes, it got the idea right aesthetically. Like, you could draw a picture of, say, Hydrocity, and everyone would instantly peg it as Hydrocity, even if it were some entirely different place than where you actually are in S3, because Hydrocity is a an actual place that Sonic merely happens to run through.

    That's one of my favorite things about Sonic. Certainly couldn't do the same for any Super Mario World stage.
     
  20. Vanishing Vision

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    I've been thinking about "tone" a bit recently and have come to a few conclusions.

    Every so often, I'll hear about Sonic being better when things are "cutesy" or "cartoony", apparently referring to classic Sonic. It really wasn't either of those, other than Sonic himself having design elements of classic cartoon characters. The world and feel of classic Sonic is stylish, flashy, dynamic, comic-book action adventure stuff with danger and peril.

    On the other hand, there are people that then try to make the Genesis games seem "darker" than they really were. Saying things along the lines of "Sonic needs to be dark because it was always serious, Eggman planned to COMMIT GENOCIDE with the Death Egg!" and other exaggerations. I could make those same exaggerations about the lighthearted plots of Colors and Lost World, and it would be just as silly.

    In thinking of these two viewpoints, I realized that SA2, which is often cited as being the first game to introduce the "dark and edgy" elements into the series, has both "dark" things in it that fit Sonic tonally as well as things that don't. Eggman blowing up the moon, holding Amy at gunpoint, and "killing" Sonic by launching him into space, are not "too dark" for Sonic. That's all standard high adventure supervillain stuff that's only dark if you imagine it happening in real life. What DOESN'T fit, tonally, are things like Shadow having flashbacks about his disease-ridden friend being gunned down by the military, or an insane man raving about taking revenge on humanity before being executed. I get the feeling that people hear the complaints about the second elements I mentioned, and interpret that as "So, you don't want there to be any stakes?" I actually enjoy SA2's story for the most part, but it was the beginning of some pretty jarring stuff in the franchise, tonally.
     
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