The Supreme Topic of 'Other' Knowledge.

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by McGuirk, Jan 10, 2007.

  1. Synergy

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    It's not restricted to monitors, it jumps over anything you place in the way (springs, spikes etc.) It's only a half-height jump though, if you stack them too high it just jumps ad infinitum.
     
  2. LOst

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    <!--quoteo(post=586287:date=May 13 2011, 06:53 PM:name=nineko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nineko @ May 13 2011, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=586287">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=586284:date=May 13 2011, 05:45 PM:name=LOst)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LOst @ May 13 2011, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=586284">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can this be demonstrated in a video for all of us to see?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eA5MeiZe5g" target="_blank">43:30</a>
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    How does this affect monitors that fall (like Sonic 3/Sonic 2 monitors)? Will the monitor not break? Will Sonic's jump be straight upwards? Or is it just that he would jump over the monitor, leaving it intact. For example, if a ring monitor is taken before act 2 is started, will that ring monitor be kept?
     
  3. steveswede

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    <!--quoteo(post=586287:date=May 13 2011, 04:53 PM:name=nineko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nineko @ May 13 2011, 04:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=586287">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=586284:date=May 13 2011, 05:45 PM:name=LOst)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LOst @ May 13 2011, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=586284">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can this be demonstrated in a video for all of us to see?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eA5MeiZe5g" target="_blank">43:30</a>
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This finally answers why the side monitor smashing was introduced. I'm sure someone told me some time ago it was a bug that was never removed and is even present in Sonic 2 if you take the bug fix out.
     
  4. ICEknight

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    ..Wouldn't Sonic be able to break those with the other monitor behavior, anyway?
     
  5. Tiddles

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    I knew about this, and it could be the reason for the change, and I was about to say I wasn't really convinced of it because of the following:

    Firstly, where's the harm of using the old code here? Sonic will just jump over the monitor instead of popping it, exactly as he jumps any other obstacle in a cutscene. Since you had at least a few seconds to break it before the victory screen if you wanted the contents, it could be argued that jumping over it is more friendly behaviour - I've certainly had feature requests for Sonic 3 Complete to stop these monitors being automatically broken. You don't gain anything from breaking it after the results screen compared to before, since the rings counter doesn't reset until you've entered the temple and lost all opportunity to collect the monitors. And if you want precedent, you're also prevented from breaking monitors after the Hydrocity 1 victory screen in both S3 and S3K, albeit in different circumstances. There is no other scenario where you'd be stopped from breaking act 1 result monitors, other than Death Egg, as LOst mentioned - but it has no monitors anyway (perhaps because, amusingly given the previous discussion, they wouldn't fall when the floor broke without additional code!)

    As I said, I was about to say that. But I just had to go and test it.

    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/T7BljXJsq6I&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/T7BljXJsq6I&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->
    (YouTube is being a bit of a laggard at processing this but I can't wait here forever... hopefully you'll be able to see it soon.)

    It does work with traditional monitor code, but with Sonic's tiny jumps in this case, the behaviour becomes pretty inconsistent. Were those tiny jumps designed specifically to collect the monitors, or are they just happening because he's jumping a short object? I haven't looked yet.

    On the plus side, I've had no problems using "classic" monitor code in Lava Reef so far, having spun into quite a number of the monitors.
     
  6. LOst

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    <!--quoteo(post=586337:date=May 13 2011, 10:13 PM:name=Tiddles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiddles @ May 13 2011, 10:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=586337">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I knew about this, and it could be the reason for the change, and I was about to say I wasn't really convinced of it because of the following:

    Firstly, where's the harm of using the old code here? Sonic will just jump over the monitor instead of popping it, exactly as he jumps any other obstacle in a cutscene. Since you had at least a few seconds to break it before the victory screen if you wanted the contents, it could be argued that jumping over it is more friendly behaviour - I've certainly had feature requests for Sonic 3 Complete to stop these monitors being automatically broken. You don't gain anything from breaking it after the results screen compared to before, since the rings counter doesn't reset until you've entered the temple and lost all opportunity to collect the monitors. And if you want precedent, you're also prevented from breaking monitors after the Hydrocity 1 victory screen in both S3 and S3K, albeit in different circumstances. There is no other scenario where you'd be stopped from breaking act 1 result monitors, other than Death Egg, as LOst mentioned - but it has no monitors anyway (perhaps because, amusingly given the previous discussion, they wouldn't fall when the floor broke without additional code!)

    As I said, I was about to say that. But I just had to go and test it.

    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/T7BljXJsq6I&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/T7BljXJsq6I&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->
    (YouTube is being a bit of a laggard at processing this but I can't wait here forever... hopefully you'll be able to see it soon.)

    It does work with traditional monitor code, but with Sonic's tiny jumps in this case, the behaviour becomes pretty inconsistent. Were those tiny jumps designed specifically to collect the monitors, or are they just happening because he's jumping a short object? I haven't looked yet.

    On the plus side, I've had no problems using "classic" monitor code in Lava Reef so far, having spun into quite a number of the monitors.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Thanks for the video upload! Stupid Youtube took an hour to process it.

    Hmm, the tiny jumps are just "initialized jumps". Cheapest form of jumping programming-wise (because once the jump has been initialized, it needs a jump key to be held down to keep the jump on-going). It looks kinda risky, jumping over the first monitor with ease. But the second one... Even worse. It just looks very risky to me. I will have to check how that demo state really works behind the scene (right away, as only then, we can understand if it was worth disabling the monitor fall code to smack a monitor from the side).

    Good to know Lava Reef works with S3 monitor code! It is the most important zone, so it must work!


    EDIT:
    The player override object (intial action $76E4E, main action $76E94) spawned from the Sandopolis Act 1 mid-boss object (at $76E3A) is controlling the player through virtual keypad bits. It says to jump when the player object is pushing something. But once the player is no longer pushing, the jump is aborted. This should be fixed, to make the override object remember the previous state, and maybe a counter to make the jump higher. Alot can be done. I don't think this is the main case why the monitor falling code was disabled. It must have been more horror to disable monitor code.
     
  7. Jayextee

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    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Supreme Topic of 'Other' Knowledge<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Roll-jumping is present in Sonic Advance, and it works exactly as in S3k (insta-shield will restore horizontal control). However, it has been extended to cater for the jump-dash. A jump-dash keyed in opposing the direction of a roll-jump (that is to say, when roll-jumping right and double-tapping left or vice-versa) the jump-dash retains the direction of the original roll-jump and gains absolutely no speed. You can't get around this by using insta-shield first because it disables air-dash for that particular jump.
     
  8. Andlabs

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    Writing my own MD/Genesis sound driver :D
    Sigh...

    Is there ANY evidence that Sonic-16 left the pitch phase and had actual work done on it?

    Thanks :)
    <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>also I should make a Failed Mega Drive Pitches page</span>
     
  9. evilhamwizard

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    No news on Nagao yet but going back to that <a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=8815&view=findpost&p=580751" target="_blank">weird thing with Azure Lake</a>...

    The MIDI used in the PC port of Sonic 3K actually has that same part, and it plays properly too. It's in Channel 6 near the end of the song before it loops. It has the same notes and everything.

    Weird.
     
  10. Ch1pper

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    On evilhamwizard's work:

    I've been under the assumption that the MIDI tracks used in the old Windows ports like S&K Collection, Comix Zone, etc. were converted/ported/what-have-you from the original Genesis tracks. I dug into the Comix Zone port once and ripped out the MIDI tracks; they had a few more obvious guitar/rock patches assigned to them, but like Collection every track had a "tempo" of 120.

    Considering things like lack of proper tempo or loop points, and the overall guesswork that seemed to be done in assigning patches to tracks in Collection, I just made the jump in my head over time. Again though, I'm unsure if this has been confirmed anywhere. If anyone has any insight/explanations to offer, please be my guest. :)
     
  11. Andlabs

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    Writing my own MD/Genesis sound driver :D
    Comix Zone is a GEMS game, and most, if not all, GEMS soundtracks are converted from MIDI... unless Drossin was masochistic enough to use the godawful GEMS sequencer directly?!

    Or maybe most GEMS soundtracks were sequenced in directly, which explains why they with diamond-in-the-rough exception sound bad? >_>
     
  12. Ch1pper

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    I'm gonna listen to Kail's podcast with Drossin again to refresh my memory.

    My impression was that, for Comix Zone, it was something along the lines of working inside GEMS directly, which I remember because he mentioned really paying attention to things like, ie, impersonating a guitar slide and the like to squeeze all the worth he could out of it. While in S3K he did something more along the lines of regular MIDI sequencing and shipped it off to Masaru Setsumaru for Setsu to actually program it into the game.
     
  13. evilhamwizard

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    My theory is that the majority of the MIDIs on the S3K PC Collection are the slightly modified versions of the original MIDIs before they were sent to the person responsible for programming them into the game. We do know from Howard that he contributed to S3K by creating MIDIs and sending them off to Masaru Setsumaru. Not sure if everyone else did that, but it's probably a safe bet that the MJ composers did something similar (instead of sending MIDIs they probably sent off demo tapes since a majority are very heavy on using samples).

    This is how I figure it:

    1.) The original source (MIDIs, demos) are created by the composers and then sent to the sound programmers. The composers didn't have to worry about software limitations for specific hardware if they did it this way. So Howard could've written the music using some nice software for Mac computers or something, and then sent the MIDIs he did to Masaru to pick and use for the game. The Japanese probably used computers from NEC or EPSON, so their selection of software to use might've been limited.
    2.) The programmers (or maybe even the original composers themselves as well) would take the data they recieved and put it on computers with special software written to take advantage of similar or identical sound hardware the Megadrive has. They would probably do this so they could program the appropriate instruments, assign and optimize notes to a certain channel (like moving all the hihats from a MIDI and put it on a PSG channel), etc. And then the software would convert it to data to be compiled into the game.

    My point here is that maybe the MIDIs used in the S3K PC port are the composer's original arrangements before converting/optimizing/editing them to be used in conjunction with the sound driver used in the game. It probably wouldn't have been possible to output the work done while optimizing/editing the sound data back to MIDI as well (it'd be like VGM2MID, complete with inaccuracies during the converting process, ultimately making everything ugly in the long run), so that might be a reason why they would have to do something like this - not that it's bad though. If this is the case, they are most likely slightly modified from their originals.

    No way to confirm this yet, but it would be nice if Howard could get those MIDIs he did for the game to us to double check with what's actually in the game.
     
  14. Sik

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    <!--quoteo(post=587203:date=May 17 2011, 01:17 AM:name=Andlabs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andlabs @ May 17 2011, 01:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=587203">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Comix Zone is a GEMS game, and most, if not all, GEMS soundtracks are converted from MIDI... unless Drossin was masochistic enough to use the godawful GEMS sequencer directly?!

    Or maybe most GEMS soundtracks were sequenced in directly, which explains why they with diamond-in-the-rough exception sound bad? >_><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Technically, the GEMS sequencer had MIDI input, meaning you could sequence the song directly using a MIDI keyboard or something like that, so I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.
     
  15. Andlabs

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    Writing my own MD/Genesis sound driver :D
    With the NEC computers:

    We know Jun Senoue talked about not finidng the right NEC PC-98 to run the MD software he wanted for Sonic 4, and we know that Bare Knuckle OST that had exclusive music on it were marked as PC-88 arranages.

    The base PC-88 and PC-98 configurations contain a YM2203. This is the original OPN chip from Yamaha. It has two standard OPN-type FM channels, a third that can either be run in standard mode or a special "multifrequency" mode, and a AY-3-8910 core. They can be upgraded to use a YM2608 — OPNA — which doubles the number of FM channels and adds some ADPCM(?) sources. The Mega Drive has a YM2612/YM3438 — OPN2/OPN2C (the latter is CMOS) — which are just six FM channels, with the third being configurable to special mode and the sixth being swappable to a software-controlled PCM channel.

    I would not be surprised if the Japanese composers were programming the songs to limitations using the OPNA system. In fact, this is why I think SMPS is limited to three PSG cahnnels — the AY-3-8910 has only three PSG channels, and each channel has a noise option which can be run at any frequency (or to be more precise, you can use raw tone, raw noise, I believe an envelope though I'm not sure what this last one is called, or any combination of the three — but all will run at the same frequency). Using either three tone-only channels or two tone-only channels and one noise-only channel allows this to be scaled to the MD's SN76489 easily.
     
  16. nineko

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    <!--quoteo(post=587201:date=May 17 2011, 06:09 AM:name=Ch1pper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ch1pper @ May 17 2011, 06:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=587201">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->like Collection every track had a "tempo" of 120.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's because EVERY EXISTING RIP of Sonic & Knuckles Collection is a wrong rip (except for two rips: my own one and ValleyBell's, which is technically even more accurate than mine). In the old rips some people just recorded the MIDI output from their soundcards instead of ripping the original data (without even bothering to set the tempo to some sensible value, and keeping it at 120 as you said), with the result that the MIDI data is a confused mess. Sadly those wrong rips are still popular on the internet, and the two good ones aren't being shared as they should.

    <!--quoteo(post=587213:date=May 17 2011, 07:04 AM:name=evilhamwizard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (evilhamwizard @ May 17 2011, 07:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=587213">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My theory is that the majority of the MIDIs on the S3K PC Collection are the slightly modified versions of the original MIDIs before they were sent to the person responsible for programming them into the game.

    (...)

    My point here is that maybe the MIDIs used in the S3K PC port are the composer's original arrangements before converting/optimizing/editing them to be used in conjunction with the sound driver used in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is my same guess, yes. I believe that the MIDI files used in the S&KC are as close to the original data files as as we can get.
     
  17. evilhamwizard

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    Also if it means anything, I forgot to mention that the tempo speed and some of the notes in the channels match up to even the sequencing data of the reused songs in Sonic 4, like the Gameover/1UP/Act Complete songs. I was also wondering if there was a reason for why some MIDIs have channels numbers that seem to jump from like channel 5 to channel 10. Take for example the Timer MIDI in S3KPC, you have the first 5 channels marked properly as such, but then the last and final channel (the drum channel) is labeled as Channel 10. I'm not sure if this was the result of the ripping process or if it could've been the result of the editing that was done to make the MIDI playable on the collection.

    Maybe when Nagao responds I could ask him for more information on how this procedure went down.
     
  18. ValleyBell

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    I don't think the SKC files are the original files. I already had to notice that when I fixed SKC's AIZ2 midis.
    Look at the bass line of AIZ2:
    [​IMG]
    As you can see, the bass lines are quite different - SKC's is simpler. The bass in the GM midi is the same.

    Btw: nineko's rip is actually more accurate, I just fixed the bugs the original midis already had. (AIZ2 was the only time I really had to guess the length of a note).
     
  19. nineko

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    <!--quoteo(post=587323:date=May 17 2011, 09:22 PM:name=evilhamwizard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (evilhamwizard @ May 17 2011, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=587323">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the drum channel is labeled as Channel 10<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's because the General Midi standard says that the drums MUST be on Channel 10. Other standards such as the Roland GS and (mainly) the Yamaha XG allow you to change that to an extent, but it's safe to say that 90% of the midi files out there have drums on Channel 10.
     
  20. evilhamwizard

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    <!--quoteo(post=587327:date=May 17 2011, 03:26 PM:name=ValleyBell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ValleyBell @ May 17 2011, 03:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=587327">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think the SKC files are the original files. I already had to notice that when I fixed SKC's AIZ2 midis.
    Look at the bass line of AIZ2:
    [​IMG]
    As you can see, the bass lines are quite different - SKC's is simpler. The bass in the GM midi is the same.

    Btw: nineko's rip is actually more accurate, I just fixed the bugs the original midis already had. (AIZ2 was the only time I really had to guess the length of a note).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Like I said, it appears to be more of a mix of some more accurate than others. Songs like the Pinball Bonus Stage (Glowing Spheres) and the Slots Machine Bonus Stage are almost completely identical in every channel when I compared the MIDI with an MIDI I created from the VGM (except for parts that might be due to inaccuracies with the VGM2MID program). The Final Boss track is also identical to the original in some ways except for the addition of some cymbal crashes and some extra notes that are not present in the original version near the end of the song before it loops.