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The Supreme Topic of 'Other' Knowledge.

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by McGuirk, Jan 10, 2007.

  1. Rlan

    Rlan

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  2. looks like an undumped build.
     
  3. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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  4. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    Man there is SO much different in the Sonic Pocket Adventure clip. The level layout is never seen in SPA, this doesn't match either act. Notably what's super weird is the underground part has windows where you can see the sky in the background. That never happens in SPA:

    npcas1.png

    Another thing that's super hard to notice unless you go frame by frame:

    npcas3.png

    Look at the background tiles in the checkerboard. Tiling issues! There are spots where the tiles are set wrong, which forms these circular patterns. Now Emerald Hill Zone had these little glowing notch holes that looked kind of similar. I wonder if it was a genuine error, or if they were going to place a sprite there and emulate the look of EHZ since SPA merges stuff from all 3 Sonic games.

    The pink waterfall itself is strange, it's a completely different pattern from the other waterfalls. There are two types of waterfalls in SPA, a dithered one that is transparent-ish, and an opaque one usually used in the background. The pink water fall matches neither pattern, and is also a good deal narrower than any waterfall seen in the final:

    water.png

    I'm fairly certain the green waterfall in the other picture is a compression error and that was a waterfall in front of the yellow checkerboard pattern. When blurred it could come out as green if the dither pattern is lost, and it matches the pattern of the other waterfalls. Also supporting this is if you look closely, you can see some feint block shapes in the waterfall, and their edges seem to line up with the edges of the checkerboard pattern surrounding it. But the pink thing, I don't think that's a waterfall at all. One thing that's odd is the pattern appears to be mirrored down the middle, waterfalls are not. Perhaps it's an early version of the tube you go through in SPA where you run down vertically that is used once in act 2?

    The palette cycles to animate the water, but it's a constant thing in the palette. They have their own reserved palette entries, they don't get swapped in and out when waterfalls are present.

    One thing that's very weird about the final SPA's Neo Island Zone: act 1 has lots of spots in the background where the geometry is bulging out, like in the shapes of the holes I pointed out above. Those are common in Green Hill Zone type levels, right? Well Act 2 is almost completely devoid of them. All the checkerboard areas are flat, except for two hills at the beginning. Contrast to act 1 where they're everywhere. I would think this indicates Act 2 was done later as a rushed version, so my speculation is what we're seeing in the above is an early, scrapped version of act 2, which would line up with that gimmick I speculated about, since it also appears in act 2 and not act 1.

    EDIT: About the IGN article above, that's just as strange. The spot where the loop goes into a slope, with the right side of the loop coming to an angle with a corner notched out, only happens once in both acts, in act 2. There are other parts where the loops go into slopes like that, but they have a different edge that extends downward. And, in the actual portion in act 2 that looks like that, the background is in a different position, near the shore line. This would have to be much higher in the stage.

    Also this level block:

    tile.png

    Which I circled in red (funnily enough exactly where the IGN logo is) NEVER appears in the game. There is no spot where a waterfall extends behind a piece of the level layout like this, all waterfalls are solid vertical columns.

    EDIT: What would be odd about the green waterfalls, if it was a dithered compression problem, is that the tiles surrounding them show beveled edges near the waterfall. Meaning the art is laid out expecting those waterfalls to not have a checkerboard pattern behind them. Yet, I swear I can see square patterns in the waterfall. I wonder if they were supposed to show sky tiles there but are accidentally showing checkerboard tiles, or perhaps I'm just seeing phantoms.

    EDIT: MORE I just noticed. In the gif with the underground parts with windows open to the background, one of the windows uses a different beveled edge for the bottom that is never seen before. There is a beveled edge that looks like that from the opposite direction, but any time there is a beveled edge on the bottom they are shaded in the final. That appears to be a tile not seen in the final game.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2025
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  5. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    OH WOW, something else I just noticed about that IGN screenshot: The "pazzle" room image is having a weird transparency error! In the final, the bit on the right is grey and solid:

    pic_3.png

    I thought it looked weird because that screen isn't animated, it doesn't slide out or anything, so why is there a bit on the right with some grass and checkerboards? From the screenshot you'd think it was an image and the menu slide out over it. But then i noticed it shares the same ramp as the image of sonic running on the bottom. So I super imposed them, and they're the same. Now the strangest part: You can actually see Sonic's foot in the "pazzle" room image. One of the blades of the zig zag background mostly covers up where Sonic is on that shot, but if you look VERY closely you can see a bit of his shoe sticking out from under it.

    pic_1.png

    pic_2.png

    These screenshots have been doctored. Maybe a green screen effect or something, some solid color is showing up as transparent?
     
  6. Rlan

    Rlan

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    While we're on it, here are all of the initial images on there, based on their URL, including one they didn't put up I think with a debug screen which has similar issues mentioned!

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  7. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    You can actually see it in every picture, it's a chroma-masking problem for sure. Look at any pic with palmtrees in it, you can see images peaking out through them at a certain color.

    So right off the bat, none of these spots exist in the game. They also have some tiles never seen, like the beveled edge of the darker underground checkerboard sections. There are actually lots of holes in the final version of SPA's NIZ where you see the bottom half of one of those parts end, and it's always just flat. Those are tiles not seen in the final game. Also, there's a moto bug in one of the pics.

    EDIT: So I've gone through and figued out which images are popping through, all the images on the left are behind the images on the right:

    left behind right 1.png

    left behind right 2.png

    left behind right 3.png

    now what's weird is this image is different from the one in the IGN copy above, it's the original source it seems in higher quality:

    missing.png

    From this, we can see there's an image poking through from under, we can see the red speckles through sonic's quills, but it doesn't line up with any of the pictures we currently have. It appears to be an image missing from the set.


    EDIT: I didn't bother showing the debug room one because it's pretty obvious, it's got the picture of Sonic running down the slope next to the spring behind it.

    EDIT AGAIN: Ok, the green waterfalls make more sense to me now. I think they weren't dithered, they're opaque. BUT one of the shades of blue -- the darkest one which is similar to grey -- is being chroma-keyed out and there's a solid green background behind it. For some reason it's happening in both of the pics with green waterfalls, they don't have other pics behind them like the other pictures do. So it's not a compression error, it's a chroma-key error with whoever took the screenshots. Perhaps the square pattern I am seeing is jpeg compression artifacts, or perhaps they're just phantoms in my eyes. This also means the red pixels I'm seeing in the image are probably not from a lost image, they're a weird artifact of the image format.

    Either way, it looks entirely unrelated to the pink "waterfall." Also, stepping frame by frame through the pink waterfall, it's very hard to tell but it does not appear to be color cycling. The pink hue at the top remains level with the ground as the camera pans, so the colors stay in their same spots. We see waterfalls cycling earlier int he same video, so this is not a waterfall at all.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2025
  8. McAleeCh

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    Re: the pink waterfall - is it not possible that these are just earlier waterfall graphics, and that they're using placeholder colours due to the cycling palettes not being implemented yet? If that's the case I'll admit it's odd that said placeholder colours are nothing like the intended result, but it's not impossible, surely?
     
  9. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    The final waterfall graphics are shown multiple times in the same video, both the opaque version and the dithered version. The comparison i posted of the graphics is using a still of the waterfall from earlier in the same video. The video begins with Sonic running past two of the dithered waterfalls (if you go frame by frame you can actually notice they are only dithered near the ground, up higher near the ceiling they switch to opaque indicating they are probably below bridges as that tends to happen in the final), and then in the middle, before he hits the slope, he runs past an opaque waterfall. I took the comparison pic from the opaque waterfall, but aside from the stipples its the same pattern. Both match the pattern of the final release.

    EDIT: For those who don't know, Neo South Island Zone Act 2 in the final features a unique loop or ramp or something that is only seen once in the game during that act. It's similar to the behind the back loop in Sonic CD, except this time you see it from above:

    ramp.png

    That's my personal guess as to what that pink waterfall is, some sort of early version of that ramp/loop/whatever.

    In the final game, and indeed even in the video where the pink waterfall exists, whenever waterfalls extend in front of the level geometry, they're dithered. You don't ever seen an opaque waterfall in front of the level layout anywhere in the game. The pink waterfall is not dithered, unlike the other waterfalls in the same video.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2025
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  10. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    Went ahead and stitched together the level layout shown in the video:

    spa level.png

    Another thing I've noticed is the still pics submitted to IGN are not from the same run as the gif they provided. You can tell because both the gif and the screenshots show a portion that is at 0:57 seconds, but they're completely different areas. However, if we take into account that they are different runs, and assume they were going at roughly the same pace, I believe the screenshot shown where Sonic is flying upwards from a sprint towards a single ring is the same spot shown in the video, as they occur *roughly* at the same spot according to the timer (1:23 in the screenshot, ~0:59 in the video). If that's the case, the image with 1:41 in the timer must have come shortly after the part where it cuts off in the video, and the part that's 0:57 in the screenshots must have come shortly before the part in the video we see, as the video begins at 0:55 and ends at 1:06, meaning it took about 10 seconds.

    EDIT: Also, by stitching together the video, I've determined the waterfalls (as in blue ones) ARE rotating their palettes. It's so hard to tell because the video jumps by several frames each time it updates, but by lining stuff up, you can see the colors are indeed rotating in this build. The pink thing, however, is not.

    Few other things I've noticed:
    -The bridge graphic is different, it's smaller and yellow
    -There's a palmtree growing out of the bridge at the end of the video, that never happens in any sonic game, and not in SPA specifically
    -The ground is misaligned at the pink thing. The ground is lower on the left than it is on the right. Either there's a slight hill right behind the pink thing or it's an error.

    EDIT: One final thing to point out re: the gif from IGN. If you open it in an image editor, it's still in layers. It appears IGN added the graphic of the Neo Geo behind the gif, it's a still picture. You can move the actual gif around in GIMP for example. I'm not sure if the chroma-key error was by IGN or SNK, but it appears IGN was dinking with their press release stuff at least.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2025
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  11. Antheraea

    Antheraea

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    If you recall, the Sonic Adventure Autodemo had several levels that couldn't load without hacks because their 1ST_READ.bin and other files were from different builds. Twinkle Park was one of them. Last year SPEEPSHighway managed to get it working by doing a lot of pointer modifications (among others to get the textures loaded in).

    I've written up comparisons on TCRF and here, with screencaps on TCRF. The images I have technically are screencaps taken from videos, not from direct gameplay (mine is video of direct gameplay though), and they're not in native resolution at all, so they don't meet the conditions required to be good screencaps according to the guidelines. Didn't want to potentially flood the file server with bad images lol

    The big things mainly are that the ship objects are different, being pretty simplistic swinging rope ships going back and forth (as opposed to the huge ship models going in vertical circles on mechanical arms in the final), some major camera differences (so, so many for the rollercoaster), and Sonic can go into Amy's level. Act 3 is actually set to be accessible by any character in this build.
     
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  12. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    I wonder if Hot Shelter was ever originally meant to be playable by Sonic, too. It's always weird in SA when you run into an act that Sonic can't get into.
     
  13. Antheraea

    Antheraea

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    Hot Shelter is extra weird because it's not in the autodemo at all. doesn't have a level slot, no assets.
     
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  14. Cooljerk

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    Sonic Stadium appears to have versions of the pre-release screenshots that were in the IGN set without the chroma issue, so it looks like IGN did that, not SNK:

    large.spocket-pre_003.jpg.b426d03f32039427c2b36ff7180d2fad.jpg

    large.spocket-pre_004.jpg.e307df117b1136909391b650917adee0.jpg

    What is noteworthy is this screenshot without the IGN logo:

    large.spocket-pre_002.jpg.a368836270318146f0430fbc7a7e025b.jpg

    The waterfall is still green, so the waterfall itself is not a chroma key issue. Perhaps it was some sort of palette rotation error, and one of the shades of blue was mixed up with one of the shade of green from the grass or something. Either way it seems IGN did screw up the pics on their site, but not this one.

    Reverse image searching the non-ign ruined versions of the Sonic Pocket Adventure images lead me to an archvied page from Sonic HQ that shows the press set, and indeed there WAS an image missing:

    screenshot11.jpg

    This is labeled "Screenshot 11." Immediately noticeable: there are three digits for the ring counter in this boss battle, when all the other images only show 2 digits. AFAIK this is the only SPA image I've seen with 3 digits for the ring counter (from pre-release I mean).


    EDIT: Looked it back up on IGN, this is actually from their review of the game, not a preview. Sonic HQ mislabeled it as a pre-release screenshot.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2025
  15. Blue Spikeball

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    I'm guessing SA1 was going to have only 10 action stages making for a nice number, but late in development they decided to add Hot Shelter to give a greater incentive to go through Amy, Big and Gamma's campaigns.

    Or maybe they implemented it when they realized that Egg Carrier had only one action stage, but Sonic, Tails and Knuckles' campaigns were already finished for the most part by that point, so it was too late to add it to them (plus the latter two' campaigns were already missing half the stages, so the lack of Hot Shelter wasn't a big deal in their case anyway).
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2025
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  16. qwertysonic

    qwertysonic

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    creating the biggest sonic collection
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  17. cartridgeculture

    cartridgeculture

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  18. CaseyAH_

    CaseyAH_

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    You are seeing things, because that Dark Chapel thing is just a Gremlin i'm pretty sure
     
  19. Chimes

    Chimes

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    Long lost cousin?
     
  20. Beltway

    Beltway

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    Not sure if the following has has been discussed/found here, at least based on a quick search of the forums.

    GamingAlexandria (Bluesky, website) found and scanned a few 1991 magazine advertisements for Sonic the Hedgehog, taken from different Famitsu issues. Alongside other things (like featuring Sonic with sharp teeth/fangs, screenshots of the game, Eggman not having yellow highlights on his shirt, and a completely unrelated robot design alongside the badniks) is this human/humanoid "hedgehog girl" (in that she's wearing a blue corset --complete with a long tail-- and hedgehog ears) that's shown alongside the animal buddies/badniks. Credit to MP83 on Bluesky for bringing attention to this curiosity.

    For what it's worth, the "hedgehog girl" also appears (alongside other human/humanoid girls in similar outfits) in "Sonic the Hedgehog Story Comic Vol. 1", a supplement included in the July 1991 issue of Mega Drive FAN Magazine. (Original scans and information for that supplement provided by SuddenDesu).

    Not quite Madonna given the different design; but at least based on these few appearances here, can't help but wonder if she was made/written to serve a similar purpose.
     
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