The Supreme Topic of 'Other' Knowledge.

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by McGuirk, Jan 10, 2007.

  1. Yuzu

    Yuzu

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    Actually, there is an interview in one of the ONM issues(It was when Unleashed was announced), they had an interview with one of the directors, they mentioned that the game was originally planned as Adventure 3 but there was too many changes from the originals, so they changed the name to Unleashed. Kind of makes sense why it's called Sonic World Adventure in Japan.
     
  2. Ollie

    Ollie

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    Ah, I always thought that came from Sonic Unleashed supposedly being the best game since SA2.
     
  3. Tweaker

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    If you want to attribute the title "Sonic 4" to any commercially-released Sonic game, it's more appropriately used in reference to Sonic & Knuckles. Yes, the game was originally supposed to be Sonic 3 part 2, but the fact of the matter is that it wasn't. Therefore, it would make sense to call it Sonic 4 as it remains the 4th Sonic game in the "main" series of Sonic platformers on the Mega Drive.

    Besides that, Sonic Adventure in and of itself is a whole new series entirely. You have the Sonic the Hedgehog series, the Sonic Adventure series, the Sonic Advance series... etc. While Sonic Adventure was certainly the next game in the continuity planned, it became a spinoff series—plain and simple. Sonic 4 seems like an inappropriate title as a result; after all, wouldn't that make Sonic Adventure 2 "Sonic 5"? It doesn't really fit together.

    Nice try, though. :psyduck:
     
  4. Sik

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    being an asshole =P
    Moreover, pirates used to call S&K as Sonic 4 and S3D as Sonic 5. Guess why pirate games start in Sonic 6 (except Sonic 3D Blast 5).
     
  5. Jayextee

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    Sonic Adventure 2 is just Sonic Adventure 2. Just like Yoshi's Island is Super Mario World 2, but not Mario 5, despite Super Mario World being Mario 4. If you follow. I agree that as of Adventure 2, it was essentially a different thread. Also, Sonic World (Adventure's proof-of-concept) / Super Mario World is a little bit of a coincidence (But not one to read heavily into).

    Things in my defense are;
    • Sonic 3 was originally intended as a longer game, so Sonic & Knuckles is just "the rest of it" -- this is pretty well known.
    • Apart from Sonic Jam (A mere compilation), Adventure was the NEXT actual Sonic game by Sonic Team.
    • Sonic Advance, although in a very similar vein, was handled by Dimps, not Sonic Team.
    Also, I'm factoring in the fact that if you trace it all back, Chaotix was an aborted/changed attempt at "Sonic 4" in itself. It's by no means solid proof, but there are more things pointing towards it than most speculation I've seen. However, looking at Knuckles and the Master Emerald, the plot there is basically picking up from where it left in S3K's good ending. And are the dolphins at the end of Emerald Coast a nod toward S3K's staff roll?

    Anyways, I'll shush now and leave the topic open for real topics of other knowledge. :3

    @Sik: Pirates also are not Sonic Team. =P
     
  6. Tweaker

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    But here's the thing—Sonic Adventure is just... Sonic Adventure. It's a whole new series! If you want to call it Sonic 4, then you have to count every sequel to it as a new installment of the "main" series as well. If Sonic Adventure 1 is Sonic 4, then Sonic Adventure 2 is Sonic 5—that's how continuity works. The whole reason it's not Sonic 4 is because... well, it''s not. Seriously—Sonic Adventure is a spinoff series just like Sonic Advance is a spinoff series. It doesn't matter who made it—what matters is that if it were meant to be Sonic 4, it would be named Sonic 4, not Sonic Adventure. This seems like extremely simple reasoning, but this really is a simple situation.

    It's well-known, yes—I'm not debating that. What I am debating, however, is the idea that it shouldn't be called Sonic 4 because it was called Sonic & Knuckles and was intended to fit in the storyline as a sequel to Sonic 3. In the same reign, why should Sonic Adventure hold any more credence over Sonic & Knuckles as the spiritual Sonic 4? It was originally meant to be called Sonic 3 part 2, but they opted to call it a different game entirely. Whether it is essentially the other half of Sonic 3 or not, it's still technically considered a separate game. As such, I think it's a much better candidate for Sonic 4 than Sonic Adventure is, all things considered.

    Sonic & Knuckles was the next game by Sonic Team after Sonic 3's release. :psyduck:

    Well, my reference to Sonic Advance was simply in example—it was a spinoff series just as Sonic Adventure was. If it was meant to be part of the main continuity, it'd be called "Sonic the Hedgehog #," where you fill in # with whatever number chronologically goes there.

    I do have to say, though—the original Sonic Advance comes pretty damn close to being a convincing part of the main Sonic the Hedgehog continuity. Excellent design.

    I always thought Chaotix was more of a Sonic CD 2 in terms of spiritual successors. It certainly seemed to borrow a lot of elements from it if nothing else—Sonic's poses from his Sonic CD spritesheet, modded versions of Sonic's special stage sprites, the sine-based jumping and skid sounds, the reused saw art, reused bits of level art... the list goes on. Don't forget to count that surreal, obscure concepts that the game was based on too—that's a core quality that the original Sonic CD held which separates it from other installments in the series.

    I think this is clutching at straws a bit too strongly, myself. Emerald Coast is based on the outskirts of an ocean; what's more appropriate in such a setting than dolphins? They're not exclusive to Sonic games, you know. =P

    But yeah—I'm not really feeling this whole thing. There's too many holes strewn about. Can't fault you for trying, though—Sonic Adventure is one of the last Sonic games that seemed to have the same amount of thought and effort put into it resembling the classics—it'd make sense for it to be Sonic 4 spiritually. There's just better candidates out there, in my opinion.
     
  7. DistroyA

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    Tweaker, all the spinoff games were developed by companies OTHER THAN Sonic Team. Sonic Adventure was developed by Sonic Team. Ergo, "Sonic 4".

    Like it or not, that is how it is.
     
  8. Tweaker

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    Except it's not how it is, as I already pointed out multiple times. If your argument is that the game should be Sonic 4 because it was developed by Sonic Team, then you can apply that just as much to Sonic & Knuckles, which was also developed by Sonic Team. Not only that, but it's literally a direct sequel to Sonic 3—that's much more of a Sonic 4 than Sonic Adventure ever seemed like to me.

    Like I said before, the spinoff thing isn't even part of my main argument—it was to illustrate the correlation between the games' naming schemes and their place in the continuity. Sonic Adventure was developed by Sonic Team, but the fact of the matter is that Sonic Adventure is a totally different series of Sonic games entirely. If it weren't, then the game would be called Sonic 4. But it's not.
     
  9. DistroyA

    DistroyA

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    Oh for fuck's sake......

    Sonic & Knuckles is just the rest of Sonic 3 that couldn't be put onto the original cart due to Sonic 3 being rushed out by Sega. I mean, look at the prototype, Sonic 3C for fuck's sake. The proof is RIGHT THERE that S&K cannot be Sonic 4 and never will be.
     
  10. Tweaker

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    Once again, you're ignoring my reasoning above. What the games were meant to be and what they became are two different things. In this sense, if Sonic & Knuckles cannot be considered "Sonic 4," then neither can Sonic Adventure—it's an entirely different series with a new name, new gameplay concepts, and a whole new gameplay perspective. If it were meant to be part of the series, than they wouldn't have split it off into a sub-series like they did.

    I mean, think about it—each spinoff series has a totally different take on the gameplay formula. Sonic Adventure did a bog-standard 3D Sonic implementation; Heroes did the team thing; Shadow did... well, Shadow; Unleashed did the 2D/3D hybrid; Rush did the intense speed, boosting, and tricks... is this making sense? If you had to link by gameplay style, art style, and pretty much anything that would be present in a spiritual Sonic 4, then Sonic & Knuckles is by far the best candidate for such a title.

    Whether or not Sonic & Knuckles was intended to be Sonic 3 part 2, they ended up naming it something totally different. That makes it an individual game in its own right. You really can't dispute this.
     
  11. DistroyA

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    If that's your reasoning, it's fucking BAD reasoning. For one, if I'm not mistaken, Sonic Team weren't even developing Sonic Adventure when they were finishing off Sonic 3. And big whoop if it has a different name. It's still the 4th game in the official Sonic canon. Then we've got Adventure 2, of which I personally think is the 5th game of the Sonic canon, and then Heroes, and so on. Each of them follows directly on from one another in concerns of story apart from Sonic 06 and Unleashed.
     
  12. Overlord

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    You're both forgetting the real Sonic 4:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_4

    Hm, I do believe that Adventure is not on here, and Crackers is. =P Crackers was made post-S&K, and would have been Sonic 4 were it not abandoned for Chaotix, hm?
     
  13. Tweaker

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    Right. So how is any of this relevant to your point, exactly?

    You're stating things, but you're not actually debunking any of my points. I brought up why you can't disregard Sonic & Knuckles as its own place in the continuity—intended part 2 of Sonic 3 or not—and you basically just said "NO YOU'RE WRONG IT'S SONIC 3 PART 2." Yeah, no shit I know that, but is Sonic 2 not just Sonic the Hedgehog part 2? And wouldn't a reasonable Sonic 3 part 2 be... Sonic 4? =P

    Sonic Adventure is no more valid a Sonic 4 candidate than Sonic & Knuckles; and, when comparing the two in terms of faithfulness to the style of the classic games in gameplay, music, and overall style, then Sonic & Knuckles takes the prize in terms of what should be considered more appropriate. Absolutely. Personally, I don't think any of them really live up to what a Sonic 4 should have been, but I'm speaking in relative terms here.

    That's an interesting point that was also raised by Jay, but in terms of spiritual followings, the game really seems more similar to Sonic CD than it is to Sonic 3 or any of the other main Sonic continuity. If anything, Chaotix was like a Sonic CD 2. Which I'm not opposed to at all, really. :psyduck:
     
  14. Jan Abaza

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    This is the "Rockman & Forte is Mega Man 9" debate all over again. 'Cept Capcom was nice enough to eventually give us an actual Mega Man 9 to shut it up.

    I wonder if Sega will do the same.
     
  15. DistroyA

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    It's obvious that neither of us is budging, so I'm leaving it at that.
     
  16. Jayextee

    Jayextee

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    That's the only thing that will move me on the issue, personally. I'm not arguing the case, Tweaker makes some good points without invalidating mine in some cases. But the point remains moot, there is no game actually named "Sonic 4".
     
  17. Someone open S&K wuith a Hex Editior and read the words SONIC 3.5 then :colbert:
     
  18. Blanche Hodapp

    Blanche Hodapp

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    Except it's not, for so many reasons :colbert:
     
  19. Diablohead

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    I'm just going to add in that personally I feel that S&K is not sonic 4 because it has way too many connecting routes to 3, S3 part 1 art, 99% same engine, leftovers in sonic 3 etc. It's how I feel about it and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here.

    They could have just scrapped how s&k continues on from sonic 3 and made a completely fresh story using yet again new sprites but they had plenty of left overs to use instead.
     
  20. Squints

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    Sonic & Knuckles isn't Sonic 4 for the same reason StarCraft Brood War isn't StarCraft 2. It's an expansion pack; just because it's a cartridge-based game doesn't exempt it, and just because it can play on its own doesn't either; I'd refer you to Rock Band Track Pack Vol. 2. Each plays on its own but isn't intended as a full game, and each can be added onto its base game (on versions that support it, in the case of the Rock Band Track Pack).