The Sonic the Hedgehog Theories Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by BlackHole, Apr 8, 2018.

  1. BlackHole


    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    Sprites for Cybernetic Outbreak
    Welp, here's a thread for those of us interested in sharing theories and headcanons. Please don't get into arguments, debates, sure, but don't be jerks during one.

    Because I'm in a bit of a rush, I'll post my up-to-date Sonic Timeline theory:

    And the timeline mentions a second Metal Sonic during Triple Trouble. That isn't a random addition, that Metal Sonic is damaged and refurbished by Robotnik with knowledge garnered during Generations, building the Metal Sonic seen in Sonic 3 and Knuckles from TT Metal Sonic's remains.

    Please, share your theories, I'd be interested to hear them all.
  2. Laughingcow


    Resident Edgelord PHD Member
    It's worth pointing out that Metal Sonic didn't become an actual character until it was established in Sonic Heroes (which borrows from the Sonic OVA). Before that, he was just one of Robotnik's robots along with Mecha Sonic.

    We need to keep in mind that until Sonic Adventure, there wasn't much of a need to establish a consistent series of events. The games in the classic era could be considered like episodes in a cartoon where everything happens but doesn't necessarily need to happen in order. As I said in the previous thread, the attempt at telling an RPG styled grandiose story is where things breakdown. In trying to tell a bigger story they only create more problems for the later games to come which lead to retcons and plot holes.

    In addition, Sonic Adventure wasn't the only soft reboot. Sonic Generations (thanks to its time fuckery) was a new baseline, a "get out of continuity free" card if you will. History was literally rewritten so any inconsistency can be hand waived away as no longer mattering. I don't think Sonic Team intended this but it is convenient.

    Lastly, I'm gonna repost what I posted in the other thread about the Mario timeline.

    Actually Shigeru Miyamoto has said many times that mario games are "timeless" and don't have a real canon to them. This becomes apparent when you realize that the Super Mario Bros. movie is actually holds some weight as this quote shows:

    “This is an old story, but Hollywood did a film version of the Mario Bros. many years back. There was a scene in the script where they needed a last name for the characters. Somebody suggested that, because they were the Mario Bros., their last name should be Mario. So, they made him “Mario Mario.” I heard this and laughed rather loudly. Of course, this was ultimately included in the film. Based on the film, that's [how] their names ended up. But, just like Mickey Mouse doesn't really have a last name, Mario is really just Mario and Luigi is really just Luigi.”

    So, Miyamoto dicking around seems to make a better continuity then actively trying. Of course. Maybe if we got Yuji Naka, Takashi Iizuka, and Yu Suzuki drunk in the same room they'd give us the timeline we've been lookin for.
  3. Overlord


    Now playable in Smash Bros Ultimate Moderator
    Berkshire, England
    Learning Cymraeg
    We uh

    Kinda don't do this sort of thread on Retro, really. It's in the ruleset and everything.

    Headcanon kinda falls under this.
  4. Sparks


    Sondro Gomez / Kyle & Lucy
    Is that for game development specifically or just theories about the games lore overall?

    I think it's at least worth experimenting this kind of thread as a stand-alone concentrated "filter" thread, as judging from the Mania thread, it does seem to be a hot topic a lot of people want to discuss.
  5. Vangar


    I was sure that rule was added when we got sick of people making up theories and trying to push them as real about tails owning the master emerald in Hidden Palace, stuff like that.

    I have a head cannon that nothing past Sonic 3 & Knuckles ever happened (And Mania) :v:
  6. Hitlersaurus Christ

    Hitlersaurus Christ

    Not a nazi, maybe Jesus, definitely a dinosaur Member
    glorious nippon
    My theory is that Sonic is actually a real hedgehog that came across and ingested a large quantity of LSD and the entire franchise is just what he's seeing.
  7. doc eggfan

    doc eggfan

    Are you pondering what I'm pondering? Wiki Sysop
    GreatMegaLD, GreatSC3k, Great SG1k
    I don't think everything needs to be in one continuous timeline

    Epoch 1
    More traditional platforming, no spin dash
    • Sonic 1 (16-bit)
    • Sonic 1 (8-bit)
    • Sonic 2 (8-bit) {bridging epoch 1.5}

    **Timeline splits in two**

    Epoch 2
    Levels with more horizontality, plus spin dash. Death Egg arc, part 1.
    • [*]Sonic 2 (16-bit)
      [*]Sonic Pocket Adventure
    Epoch 2'
    Levels with more verticality, plus super peel out. Metal Sonic arc.
    • [*]Sonic Chaos {bridging epoch 1.5'}
      [*]Sonic CD
      [*]Sonic Triple Trouble
      [*]Knuckles Chaotix (epoch 3' maybe?)

    **Epoch 2' terminates, Epoch 3, follows Epoch 2**

    Epoch 3
    Level design good balance of horizontal and vertical, plus elemental shields. Death Egg arc, part 2.
    • [*]Sonic 3
      [*]Sonic & Knuckles
    Epoch 4
    • [*]Sonic Mania

    That's about it for the mainline classic 2D series, in my mind. The rest could be dismissed as "non-canon" spin-offs.
  8. This is actually what I came into the topic to say as well. This is a research site, not
  9. Hitlersaurus Christ

    Hitlersaurus Christ

    Not a nazi, maybe Jesus, definitely a dinosaur Member
    glorious nippon
    My theory is that rings are actually robotnik's poop that he leaves everywhere for Sonic to clean up.

    They look that way because he has a rare intestinal condition. He is sick. Sonic is picking on a sick old man. Much like God of War, Sonic is a game where you play as the villain.
  10. XCubed


    Will Someday Own a Rent-A-Center Oldbie
    Exactly. By now I've learned that they do not want a set “timeline” of events. It hinders creativity. The only true conspiracy is Sonic 3's music (which is its own thread) and the Sonic 4 cliffhanger which needs to be concluded with an animation, comic, book, something. But no more therories. If you have one, write a book and share it in the Creative Works forum. :colbert:
  11. Scarred Sun

    Scarred Sun

    Be who you needed when you were younger Administrator
    Tower 8 ️
    Welp, this.
    Ugh, headcanon and fanon are... not really our jam here, but I want to see if this goes somewhere. That said, let's set some ground rules:

    1. Hello Internet comedians please find another topic to make your jokes. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt but if we're just cracking one-liners this topic will have no chance of surviving.

    2. If you're going to post any headcanon or fanon theory, you still need demonstrable evidence and a writeup. We're talking corroborating evidence like manual texts, developer interviews, some actual screenshots, promotional content, something. Not two sentences of "I think this."

    If it works, it works; if not, this topic will be locked.
  12. BlackHole


    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    Sprites for Cybernetic Outbreak
    I've removed the mentions of headcanon and the Robotnik one, make it more inline with the forum's rules. My apologies, I thought I'd shift the discussion from Mania Plus into a thread more suitable towards it, and theories can prove interesting when people are willing to invest time into it. Zelda is rife for it, and some of them are fairly interesting.

    Examples of what we could look at are things like the Angel Island pyramids in Sandopolis. Were Echidna are Humans particularly close at some point, since Humans appear in their murals?
  13. Chainspike


    Stealing rings since 1994 Member
    Death Egg Zone
    S3C Delta
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the classic games took place on Sonic's world. Humans (except for robotnik) are non-existent in Sonic games up until Sonic Adventure. Except for that carving in Sandopolis Zone act 2 which was likely nothing more than a level artist making the Zone look like an Egyptian Pyramid. They said themselves whilst making Adventure 1, that they wanted Sonic to be in a more realistic world. This was also a main plot point for an entire (non-canon) TV show (Sonic X). Also, it seems like Sonic Forces and Sonic Mania take place in Sonic's world too.

    Sonic probably learned the spin dash from this guy: (Image to big)
    It actually would unoffically be the first use of the spindash in a Sonic game.
  14. Hitlersaurus Christ

    Hitlersaurus Christ

    Not a nazi, maybe Jesus, definitely a dinosaur Member
    glorious nippon
    That's certainly what Sega's going with now, but back when Yuji Naka was with Sega someone asked him why there were humans in Adventure but not the originals and he said it's because the previous games took place on islands where there weren't many humans but the Adventures take place on the mainland.
  15. DigitalDuck


    Arriving four years late. Member
    Lincs, UK
    TurBoa, S1RL
    Okay, so a fair bit of fanwankery but this is how I see it:

    Sonic 1 (8-bit) and Sonic 1 (16-bit) - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
    Two different tellings of the same adventure. We can even assume the original 16-bit level order (before it was changed for balance reasons) and they still fit together as Green Hill -> Bridge -> Jungle -> Labyrinth -> Marble -> Star Light -> Spring Yard -> Scrap Brain -> Sky Base. They share a lot of locations and is suggested to be Sonic's first meeting with Eggman.

    Tails' Skypatrol - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
    Could take place before, after, or concurrently with Sonic 1 (8-bit)/(16-bit); Tails being Tails before meeting Sonic or Eggman.

    Sonic 2 8-bit - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
    Tails meets Sonic on South Island, Eggman kidnaps him, Sonic saves him. Eggman realises the only thing that would beat Sonic is a robotic version of himself, develops Silver Sonic as a prototype.

    Sonic 2 16-bit - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
    Sonic and Tails chase Eggman to Westside Island, Eggman fixes and improves Silver Sonic, also builds giant Eggman mech. Sonic develops the Spindash.

    Sonic 3K - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
    Eggman hears rumours of powerful Master Emerald on Angel Island, tricks Knuckles into thinking Sonic is the bad guy. Upgrades Silver Sonic to Mecha Sonic, upgrades giant Eggman mech.

    Sonic Generations (Classic) - Classic Universe only
    Classic Sonic seems to have been pulled right out after S3K - Tails is with him, but Knuckles isn't as he's guarding the Master Emerald and still suspicious of Sonic. Sonic's first encounter with Metal Sonic in the Classic Universe.

    Sonic & Tails - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
    Eggman starts shit again. In the Classic Universe, Sonic tries to develop the air dash after seeing Modern Sonic perform it, but can't quite figure it out. In the Modern Universe, Sonic develops the Peelout.

    Sonic 3K (Knuckles) - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
    Could take place before, after, or concurrently with Sonic & Tails; after Sonic and Eggman have had their little tiff on Angel Island, Knuckles cleans up the place and sorts out that rogue Egg Robo.

    Sonic & Tails 2 - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
    Eggman tricks Knuckles into thinking Sonic is the bad guy again. Fang decides to be an opportunist. Knuckles finally accepts Sonic as the good guy (for a while). Eggman unveils his new, perfect robot Sonic: Metal Sonic... except it's not quite finished yet. Sonic's first encounter with Metal Sonic in the Modern Universe.

    Sonic 3D - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
    Eggman starts shit in Flicky Island, upgrades giant Eggman mech again, continues working on new robot Sonic behind the scenes. Tails and Knuckles help Sonic defeat him. Sonic learns Homing Attack with the gold shield. In the Modern Universe, Sonic practices this until he can do it without the shield. In the Classic Universe, Sonic is too fixated on the air dash to realise the connection between the two.

    Sonic CD - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
    The trio part ways. Sonic saves Amy, spends rest of life trying to run away from her. Eggman starts shit on Little Planet. In the Classic Universe, Sonic uses his previous experience against Metal Sonic and wrecks him. In the Modern Universe, Sonic uses his perfected Peelout to outrun him.

    Tails Adventure - shared by both Classic and Modern Universes:
    Could take place before, after, or concurrently with Sonic CD; Tails spends more time working on his technological abilities to help Sonic defeat Eggman, finds his own rival instead. While the Japanese manual says this takes place before Sonic and Tails meet, the US/Europe manuals disagree - I think it makes more sense here.

    Sonic the Fighters - Classic Universe only:
    A very loose adaption of Sonic 4's story in the Classic Universe, Eggman spends a lot of time rebuilding Metal Sonic after Sonic destroyed it. Sonic gathers a ton of friends beat the shit out of Eggman and minions on Death Egg 2. Sonic and Tails go off and do their own thing, Knuckles and Espio go elsewhere...

    Sonic 4 - Modern Universe only:
    Eggman fucks up Little Planet some more, recovers Metal Sonic and upgrades him, giant Eggman mech, and Death Egg again. Tails returns to Sonic to help defeat him.

    Sonic Mania - Classic Universe only:
    The Phantom Ruby appears due to anomalies in time, appears "simultaneously" in both the Classic and Modern universes, being much more powerful in the Classic universe as that's where the timeline rewrite is occurring. Classic Sonic's attempts at imitating Modern Sonic's air dash lead to him developing the Drop Dash instead.

    Sonic Forces (Classic) - Classic Universe only:
    The Chaos Emeralds amplify the power of the Phantom Ruby and allows Classic Sonic to appear, as an illusion, in the Modern Universe.

    Chaotix - Classic Universe only:
    While Sonic is in another universe, Eggman decides to start shit again, upgrading Metal Sonic some more. Knuckles and co. arrive to save the day instead.

    The rest of the games are Modern Universe only and order is effectively game order starting from Sonic Pocket Adventure. I'm not counting most spinoffs in this as they should be considered non-canon.

    Classic Universe:
    Sonic 1 (8-bit) and Sonic 1 (16-bit)
    Tails' Skypatrol
    Sonic 2 8-bit
    Sonic 2 16-bit
    Sonic 3K
    Sonic Generations (Classic)
    Sonic & Tails
    Sonic 3K (Knuckles)
    Sonic & Tails 2
    Sonic 3D
    Sonic CD
    Tails Adventure
    Sonic the Fighters
    Sonic Mania
    Sonic Forces (Classic)

    Modern Universe:
    Sonic 1 (8-bit) and Sonic 1 (16-bit)
    Tails' Skypatrol
    Sonic 2 8-bit
    Sonic 2 16-bit
    Sonic 3K
    Sonic & Tails
    Sonic 3K (Knuckles)
    Sonic & Tails 2
    Sonic 3D
    Sonic CD
    Tails Adventure
    Sonic 4
    Sonic Pocket Adventure
    Sonic Adventure etc.

    TL;DR: Generations caused Classic Universe Sonic to focus on the air dash, this developed into the Drop Dash; Peelout is a Modern Universe thing, eventually developed into the Boost. Minus Peelout but plus experience, Classic Universe Sonic was more direct in fights against Metal Sonic and caused more damage against him than his Modern Universe counterpart, massively diverging the timelines and creating the Phantom Ruby as a result.

    There, you wanted theories.
  16. BlackHole


    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    Sprites for Cybernetic Outbreak
    Ah, but if we just deny everything as artistic choice, then nothing can be done here.

    Sandopolis has conspicuous human drawings in the background. One has to ponder why, since on the "Human world" of Sonic Adventure the Humans have Echidna pyramids.

    Also, another topic of theory could be the Sonic statues seen in Hydrocity. Are they linked to the mural of Super Sonic seen later in Hidden Palace?
  17. Sir_mihael


    Boy, this one always gets me. I feel like Sega trying to force a seperate 'Human' and 'Sonic' world comes across as a pretty short-sighted attempt to throw the "Dark Age" of Sonic under a bus.

    (Edit: Ah fuck it, I wasn't gonna contribute to this thread originally but might as well attempt a definitive micro-essay, sorry for length. No fan theory fluff, just official citations and evidence)

    (Double Edit: Although it might seem similar, this isn't related to any 'Classic/Modern' world discussions, for argument's sake, this counts only for the Modern Sonic dimension/timeline/whateveryouwannacallit)

    I mean, it's definitely safe to say that Humans are pretty much retired from appearing in Sonic games akin to Jar Jar Binks appearing in a Star Wars movie sequel - But the idea that there was or is a seperate "Human" and "Sonic" world really falls apart once you look at the actual games themselves in any depth.

    Going back to their first in-game appearance (not counting Madona, or Man of the Year, but keept those in mind!) we had Sonic Adventure - which introduced Humans to the world, but also established the origins of Angel Island and the Echidna Tribe, not to mention more information on the role of the Master Emerald!
    Same Rings, same Loops: It's safe to say, this is the same world as Sonic 3 & Knuckles and it's prequels took place in. This was clearly Sonic Team's intention at the time as well.
    To say otherwise would require some serious fanfiction to explain why the Knuckles Clan and Angel Island someohow slipped between the 'Human' and 'Sonic' world.
    (I mean, maybe the Train to Mystic Ruins is some kind of spooky dimensional portal I don't know)

    Adventure 2, Heroes, Shadow and 06: we know these all take place in the same world as Adventure 1 through story and location connections referenced throughout. Heck, even up to Generations seems pretty clear in-game that Sonic 1 all the way to Unleashed are part of one world. You'd think that would definitely be the game to bring up a 'Human/Sonic World' concept if there was one.

    Now, some things I've heard mentioned as evidence for this: The English script of Sonic Colours and Lost World use the term "Sonic's World" as if to imply either a seperate world, or just the name of the planet. But I stress this is only the English script as this term is not used in the Japanese scripts for either games (cheers Windii).
    In other words, Pontaff Pontaff'd it up.

    Secondly, some people have taken Sonic Forces' lack of humans as a sign that this is some kind of Animal Only Human-less world. Whilst is might seem on the surface that this isn't the same world that Adventure to Unleashed took place on, the Prequel comics have definite callbacks to Adventure 1 (Pachamacac and Chaos), and Sonic 06, with Shadow and Rouge on some Official Mission, all but using the term GUN.
    Secondly, something's on-screen absence isn't generally enough to credit being not part of a world without a proper acknowledgement - else poor Cream the Rabbit's wouldn't be part of the Forces' world either, aw shit.
    And, honestly, I can't blame Sonic Team for wanting to retire the regular folk since they get associated with the "worst" of the games. Same with using any terminology from the Adventure series up to 06 - Hence why other terms like 'Chaos Control' is all but a muffled noise under a giant Sega pillow now - it's almost a soft version of the Archie mandate.

    To conclude, it would require way more head-scratching and fan theories to seperate which games are part of which world than it would to just confess Humans have been a part of Sonic's World at one point and will probably forever be offscreen. In other words - even if SEGA, Iizuka and Sonic Team say there's a seperate Sonic and Human world, Sonic the Hedgehog (the published game series) completely throws this idea out the window. Similarly, if Iizuka and SEGA's documents said "Eggman is actually half-gerbil and the Rings are made of gingerbread!", it would mean nothing unless it actually made it into a game, or some other official canon material.

    In other words, what Yuji Naka said back then still makes sense now and it's what I'll stick with, unless a future Sonic Team game actually addresses and confirms such a concept (er, the human/sonic world one, not the gerbil gingerbread one...)

    Unless they mean "Human World" like the Worlds in Mario which are actually more like other countries, in which case ignore everything I've written whoops-
  18. Hitlersaurus Christ

    Hitlersaurus Christ

    Not a nazi, maybe Jesus, definitely a dinosaur Member
    glorious nippon
    The “Sonic's world” part of the English scripts is most likely from Pontac/Graff looking at the series bible. Allegedly the official bible that mentions all the two world stuff calls them “Earth” and “Sonic's World,” with the latter being how you're supposed to refer to it in your game.
  19. SomeSortOfRobot


    Mid-Southern US

    Sonic Generations caused Sonic Mania to happen, in a story capacity.

    One of the events that happen in Sonic Generations is that Classic Sonic witnesses Modern Sonic do the Homing Attack, but could not do it himself. When Sonic returned to the past, he did so with knowledge of future abilities.

    Now, we have two Sonic games that are meant to take place directly after Sonic and Knuckles; Sonic Mania and Sonic 4. I believe that both games happen within different timelines, and that is evident in the abilities Sonic possesses in said games, as well as the events that transpired.

    In Sonic Mania, Sonic uses the drop dash, something that has never before been seen in Sonic games until after Generations. I believe when Classic Sonic returned to the past after Generations, he gave up trying to learn the Homing Attack, and possibly created the Drop Dash as a means to set himself apart from his future self.

    Another element is Eggman, and his use of the Phantom Ruby. Like with Sonic, it's possible that Dr. Eggman imparted future knowledge onto his younger self during Sonic Generations, or is possibly still communicating with him even afterwards, giving him knowledge of the ruby's existence.

    This means that Sonic Mania exists in an alternate universe from Sonic 4, which depicts what would have occurred had Sonic and Eggman not met their future selves.

    This is evident in one last tidbit, when Tails first meets Classic Sonic in Sonic Forces. He deliberately refers to him as the "Sonic from another dimension," meaning he already knew the timeline split would occur.
  20. Dr. Mecha

    Dr. Mecha

    Dallas, TX
    3d Models
    1. If Webber's comment on SEGA's inhouse bible back at 2015 was true, then the Knuckles' scenario within S3K was non-canon to PostModern Sonic's Timeline; meaning this was the point in which the series branch out between the Classic and Post Modern Sonic.
    2. Eggman (along with his great grandson, Eggman Nega) was the only Human to travel between worlds as much as Sonic and Friends; meaning that He's a much bigger threat than everyone believes. It's also the reason why you don't see GUN all over the place (other than the fact that Eggman blew up one of their bases).
    3. Sonic and Friends lives in the Fantasy Zone, along with Space Harrier and Opa Opa. This possibly means that Mobius and possibly Planet Freedom was just another set of planets that Sonic and friends visits.
    4. Speaking of Mobius, Eggman and Ivo Robotnik aren't the same entity, nor are they're related. This pretty much makes Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine canon to the Classic Sonic Timeline.