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The Sonic the Hedgehog Headcanon Thread of Lore and Time Stones

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by BlackHole, Aug 31, 2022.

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  1. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

    Neutral Type eimoboy / Maria Fan Member
    Sorry, with "already existing" I mean that the Super Emeralds themselves are already a thing in lock-on because the game clearly tells you "Super Emeralds"
    technically the regular CEs are a "key" for the summoning of the Super Emeralds, they appear, and the CEs are trapped in a, somehow, subspace inside them.
    Non-lock-on & Knuckles implies that the Emeralds in Hidden Palace are the ones that Knuckles took from Super Sonic, and the game just forces you to collect them again because whatever, the games needs to be longer. You collecting them in Non-lock-on S3 isn't canon either, so that's pretty much how I see it:
    Non-lock-on:
    Knuckles takes CEs from Super Sonic and places them in Hidden Palace, Sonic never went through subspace.

    Lock-on:
    Knuckles takes CEs from Super Sonic and spreads them in subspace around Angel Island
    Sonic collects them, and when arrives at Mushroom hill, goes to Hidden Palace, where the CEs are sent to the subspace inside the Super Emeralds, this is what "upgrades" them and why when Sonic collects them, they have the M.E shape.

    Or maybe I'm crazy.

    Edit: I know it sounds confusing, so to make it clear, what I'm trying to reach for is a explanation for the "2 sets" theory, Iizuka said that the SEs are in other dimension, that's why I mentioned the subspace, as there is no reason for you to collect the Super Emeralds *inside the Super Emeralds* if they are already there in the HP altar, so going by Iizuka's logic, The Super Emeralds already exist in NonLO &K, the CEs summon them, then they upgrade the CEs, to have the same shape as them.

    Of course I don't agree with this logic, I'm just trying to explain how Iizuka's statement could work.

    Plus @BlackHole sorry for bothering you again, but could you also explain the chaos emerald timeline in the classic era please?
    Plus extra questons, I got confused with some stuff, you said that Gerald was in possess of one CE 50 years ago, which could presumably explain why there aren't 7 in Sonic 1991, but the Battle journal says that he was in possess of at least more than one CE.
    And the Cocoa Island set is meant to be the same as the South Island's?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2023
  2. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    You mean my idea on how they were split?

    3000 years ago
    -Chaos uses the Chaos Emeralds to become Perfect Chaos.
    -After Chaos is sealed, the remaining people split the Chaos Emeralds and spread them around various islands, including Cocoa, South, Westside and Angel Island. Debating on the last island*.

    50 years ago
    -Gerald, while researching the ancient ruins, happens upon one of the South Island Chaos Fragments and uses it for his research aboard the ARK.

    Some time before...
    -The Battle Kukku Armada finds one of the Cocoa Island Chaos Fragments. The capital ship is sent to Cocoa Island to prep for invasion.

    Tails' Adventure
    The Battle Kukku Armada attack Cocoa Island for the remaining six Chaos Fragments. They find one more, but Tails recovers the other five and then it before they can make off with it.

    Sonic the Hedgehog (Mega Drive)
    Dr. Ivo "Extraordinarily Gifted Gentleman" Robotnik arrives on South Island and attempts to locate the Chaos Fragments, since his research and knowledge of Gerald finding one on South Island has him realise there should be six more Chaos Emeralds.

    Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive)
    -Robotnik attacks Westside Island after following Sonic there. Tails thinks Robotnik wants the Chaos Emeralds from Cocoa Island, Sonic wonders why he is after the Emeralds left on South Island while on Westside Island, and Robotnik is wondering why he's got a signal on Westside Island when the two talking to him think they're not even on the island. All three realise there's more going on than they realise.

    Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (8-Bit)
    After hiding the Westside Island Chaos Fragments, Sonic returns to South Island where he finds a note from Tails, where he states Robotnik has captured everyone and is demanding the six Chaos Fragments somewhere on South Island. After, instead of uniting the South Island Fragments with their others, they leave them to repair the damage Robotnik has done after hollowing out Gimmick Mountain** and prevent South Island breaking apart.

    Sonic the Hedgehog Chaos
    Robotnik takes one of the South Island Chaos Fragments, uncaring that they're repairing the damage he caused, and Sonic and Tails scramble to recover the six before South Island breaks apart completely and sinks. They don't know if the other Fragments will function the same way and really don't want to risk blowing the island up completely, so don't simply replace them with the other Fragments.

    Sonic the Hedgehog Triple Trouble
    Robotnik, after the Death Egg crashed on Angel Island and he has encountered Knuckles, uses his new hiding spot and manages to steal the South Island Chaos Fragments. He uses them to test fire a Death Egg Superweapon, the Atomic Destroyer, to replace one that was damaged but loses the six used in an accident, prompting a race to reclaim them.

    Fang, meanwhile, has managed to slip by everyone as Sonic and Robotnik fought and collect the recently lost South Island Fragments, as well as the Westside Island, Cocoa Island (including the Battle Kukku Fragment) and Missing* Fragments prior, plus the United Federation South Island Fragment. He uses ancient temples to remerge the Chaos Emeralds together, eventually merging four of the five pieces back together with the intent of claiming the seven great treasures: the complete Chaos Emeralds.

    Sonic, however, claims five of them from him, while Robotnik manages to steal one, leaving one remaining in the temples he was using to refuse them.

    Come the Atomic Destroyer, Fang sneaks in, where he tricks and captures Knuckles to try and learn the location of the remaining (Angel Island's) Fragments, as well as try take back the Chaos Emeralds Robotnik and Sonic took. However, when Robotnik arrives to combat Sonic (and him) with a giant mech, Fang sees that he's out of his depth with direct confrontation and bails.

    With that loss, he attempts to flee and remain hidden, but Sonic and Tails manage to track him down to an island and take the seventh Chaos Emerald from him.

    Sonic the Hedgehog 3
    Tails, deciding not to take risks at being caught off guard with more Fragments that Robotnik could possibly find and use against them, begins a blanket scan for Chaos Emerald Energy signatures with a Jewel Radar he invents, just in case. Imagine his surprise when he suddenly detects a powerful signature.

    Sonic arrives with a ring he found washed up on the shore, and they recall the legend of the island that was once part of the continent before an incident saw the civilization get wiped out. Figuring a connection, they set out, only to be intercepted by Knuckles, who steals Sonic's collected Emeralds and leaves. Once away, Knuckles places the Refused Emeralds in Hidden Palace, but realises they're still incomplete.

    Sonic, meanwhile, begins his adventure and collects the seven missing fragments. After being separated from Tails***, he sees Knuckles sneaking around and investigates, ending up in the Hidden Palace where the seven remaining Fragments respond to the Refused Chaos Emeralds and the Master Emerald, becoming complete once more.


    *I'm considering Flickies' Island, since that has it's own "where the Chaos Emeralds lie" legend and has ties to Subspace, where Fang lives. Noted as "Missing" for now.

    ** Gimmick Mt.'s level description states:
    [quote Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (8-Bit) JP Manual]Gimmick mountain is a suspicious mountain. The hollowed mountain is teeming with modern machines. Use gears and conveyer belts wisely. But be careful not to speed too much.[/quote]
    I'm using that and the Chaos Emerald's ability to repair damage to justify Sonic Chaos saying South Island suddenly needs the Chaos Emeralds to remain afloat.

    ***Sonic & Knuckles' manual makes a passing mention of Tails, so I like to assume Sonic and Tails were separated after the Death Egg refell, and Tails doubled back to the Tornado.

    Edit:
    It's a bit tricky, but we only know he had one. Japanese doesn't really have plurals, while the Gizoid only managed to grab one, and Gerald is thankful it didn't get all seven. So we know he has one at least, and know he knows of all seven, but not if he HAD all seven, or even if he had more than one.

    Any further questions, @Rafa Stary?
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2023
  3. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

    Neutral Type eimoboy / Maria Fan Member
    I read it multiple times to be sure that I didn't lose a single bit.
    So let me see...

    -Chaos uses the complete set to achieve his perfect form and spread the chaos (there's many better ways to say this but I'm lazy to think about it)
    -After it, the remaining members of the clan broke the complete set into multiple fragments and spread them in Cocoa Island, South Island, Westisde Island and Angel Island.
    -Gerald gets one Fragment from South Island, and takes it to the ARK
    -G.U.N takes the Fragment from South Island in the ARK and hides it in their base (maybe Security Hall?)
    -The Battle Kukku Armada finds one Chaos Fragment in Cocoa Island, but Tails finds the other five and takes the sixth fragment from Battle Kukku XVI, keeping them all safe in Cocoa Island.
    -Eggman detects the other 6 South Island fragments and tries to get them, Sonic tries to prevent him, he gets the 6 fragments and keeps them safe somehwere in South Island.
    -Eggman detects the 7 Westside Island fragments and tries to get them, Sonic tries to prevent him, he gets the 7 fragments and keeps them safe somewhere in Westside Island.
    -Sonic collects the 6 fragments in South Island because his friends were captured, and uses them to prevent the destruction of South Island by Eggman, Eggman then gets one of the fragments and Sonic & Tails (them, in the game of same name) try to recover it to prevent the same disaster from happening.
    -Eggman gets the 6 fragments from South Island but then loses them, and asks for Knuckles to recover them. Sonic & Tails (2 this time) also try to recover them. Meanwhile, the 7 fragments from Westside Island and the 6 from Cocoa Island, which were hidden but also unprotected, were found by Fang, he also took G.U.N's fragment, and then returned to Subspace, and merged all the fragments 14 fragments into 6 incomplete Emeralds, these that Sonic took from him at the end.
    -With the 6 Incomplete emeralds that Sonic took from Fang, he also decides to merge them with the 6 remaining fragments from South Island that he collected in the last adventure, this results in 7 Incomplete Emeralds.
    -Sonic and Tails detects the 7 fragments from Angel Island, Sonic uses the 7 Incomplete Emeralds to transform into Super Sonic and reach the Island, but Knucles takes the 7 IEs from him to the Hidden Palace, there, he merges the 7 IEs with the 7 fragments that he has, which are the last ones. Then this finally results in the the Complete Emeralds.

    Did I get it right?
    If the answer is yes, then where did you get the info that the Battle Kukku Armada already owned one fragment and that Cocoa Island has 7 fragment? The only fragment owned by BKA is the one that Tails takes from Battle Kukku XVI, which is one of the 6 in the game, plus the manual doesn't say anything about BKA already having one fragment in hands, neither that there are 7 fragments. Unless I'm missing something...
    Plus, I can't remember of a fragment owned by G.U.N being mentioned anywhere, where did you also get this one?

    Edit: plus, Gerald definitely had less than 7, it couldn't be more than 6 because IIRC the whole reason for his "deal" with Black Doom is because he told him that Shadow would bring the 7 Emeralds to him.
     
  4. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Pretty much.

    It's just something I added (Headcanon thread :P). It's just to better justify their invasion and keep the sets to the standard seven. Tails finds six, including the one on the Battle Kukku Armada, so them finding one, securing it back at home and then invading for the remaining six seems a sensible plan and quietly explains out the missing seventh Emerald, without having to change a single line of text.

    Professor Gerald's Chaos Emerald. Gerald had a Chaos Emerald and do you really think G.U.N. would just leave it on the ARK after the ARK Incident 50 years ago? They've also been producing Chaos Drives in the past 50 years somehow.

    That's a valid point, but then he could have just kept the Chaos Emeralds hidden aboard the ARK when Black Doom was about.
     
  5. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

    Neutral Type eimoboy / Maria Fan Member
    Makes sense, now the remaining pieces are Drift 1 & 2, Labyrinth & Blast (and we can be sure that all of these games doesn't take place in multiple islands, Westside Island probably has its own Ice Cap)
    Nope, but I thought it was actually dispatched from the ARK, I remember reading something about it somewhere...
    You're talking about G.U.N? I thought that only Gerald made the Chaos Drives.
    IIRC The Black arms or at least Black Doom can sense the CEs, or maybe that's just Sega of America playing again.
     
  6. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Sonic Drift 2 is implied to also take place on South Island, Iron Ruin's outline looks suspiciously like a ruinous Scrap Brain Zone.
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Several capsules were ejected, so it's possible the Chaos Emerald(s) may have been among them.

    He did, but G.U.N. use them in their robots now, so would have to mass produce them.

    When is that said so I may check?
     
  7. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

    Neutral Type eimoboy / Maria Fan Member
    I really don't think so, Drift 1 is entirely in South Island, and there is already a Scrap Brain Course, why would Drift 2 switch islands for a single course?
    And then probably Fang found the capsule.
    Isn't that just a gameplay thing? The robots return in Shadow 05, Rush and they doesn't have chaos drives, neither in Generations where City Escape is specifically meant to take place at the events of SA2.
    My bad, I misunderstood Doom's Eye dialogue in Cosmic Fall.
     
  8. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Well, unless Space is on Westside Island, we do know they leave the island to go face the Death Egg.

    Eh, I assume G.U.N. would not let a jewel of infinite power leave their hands as easily as that.

    They are confirmed to be powered by them, and we're just not picking them up in all instances due to lack of use (read: no Chao Garden, the monsters).
     
  9. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

    Neutral Type eimoboy / Maria Fan Member
    Must be the "Death Egg" from Sonic Blast, we witness its launch in Westside Island in Drift 2, then it flies over South Island, and then finally, falls in the sea next to it in Blast.
    But there are no reports of they reaching any of the islands, there are?
    They're? Very strange, then Eggman might also have recovered a lot of them to use as the power source for his Mechs in 2006.
     
  10. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    That's Silver Castle.

    There's no reports of them at all prior to Sonic Adventure 2, despite being active 50 years prior.

    They woulda been real helpful with the Egg Carrier...
     
  11. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

    Neutral Type eimoboy / Maria Fan Member
    But, the heck...doesn't the game shows the Death Egg falling into the sea?
     
  12. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    No, it reuses the pre-rendered graphics of the Death Egg from Sonic & Knuckles' opening as Silver Castle, but they are two separate things.
    [​IMG]
     
  13. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

    Neutral Type eimoboy / Maria Fan Member
    Wait...what the?? No wonder why the wiki page of Blast doesn't mention the Death Egg
    But you're saying that the DE isn't in the game only because there are no external sources talking about it or because sources says that the DE isn't actually in the game?
     
  14. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    There's nothing about the Death Egg at all. Robotnik would probably be scrambling (heh) to stop it crashing if such were the case.

    Instead, he shoots Sonic and then wanders off to begin construction on South Island, so...

    It's, at most, another attempt at the Death Egg's intention with a smaller construct.
     
  15. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

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    One problem with the split emerald theory: Gerald specifically created the Eclipse Canon with 7 fully powered Chaos Emeralds in mind. The slots in the weapon are for diamond cut jewels, not emerald cut like the shards supposedly are.

    As for GUN creating Chaos Drives, Gerald's research of the Emeralds allowed him to develop a process of crystallizing chaos energy on his own. That's how GUN was still able to manufacture the drives 50 years later without access to the Emeralds (which in your headcanon, would have been fully restored in Sonic 3 and thus unavailable to them in at least Adventure).
     
  16. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Honestly, I was expecting this point to be brought up sooner.

    Gerald has two sources that lets him know the Chaos Emerald he has is not the correct shape: their images in the Echidna Ruins and the Black Arms, who know enough about the Chaos Emeralds to know Chaos Control and were visiting long before the Perfect Chaos Incident, so can give him a run down on their specifications for a proper fitting for the ARK and, later, the Eclipse Cannon, so he doesn't accidentally give them fragments that wouldn't enable their plans.

    The Chaos Fragment they have still outputs Chaos Emerald Energy, just not to the same extent as a full Chaos Emerald. It gives them, at most, 1/5th the output. Enough to get a decent stockpile over the years, but nowhere near the amount a full one could provide.

    And we do know G.U.N. does sometimes go around and collect them, like how Rouge has to infiltrate the Security Hall on Prison Island to collect three stashed away.
     
  17. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

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    My point here is that if G.U.N. has an Emerald Fragment, then there's no way the Chaos Emeralds would be fully formed in Sonic 3 and onwards. One of the Emeralds would still be emerald cut rather than diamond cut.

    • The robots that G.U.N. uses are roughly 50 years old and use the Chaos Drives that Gerald invented. We see them both on the ARK (Lost Colony and and the flashbacks in Shadow The Hedgehog) and on Earth and they operate the same.
    • The Drives are obviously plentiful due to the sheer amount of robots and how much we see Chao use them.
    • In Sonic 06, Eggman uses a new kind of Chaos Drive to power his robots and he doesn't have access to the Emeralds or emerald shards.
    All of this implies that Gerald and/or G.U.N. came up with a method of creating the drives without the use of the Chaos Emeralds and/or their shards. If they did have a shard as you suggest, then they would have had it for 50 years. Yes, they had access to 3 emeralds during SA2 and maybe they would have used those, but then where did all of the robots on the ARK come from? If Gerald had a shard that he use to create the initial drives which he later lost, there was a gap where no drives were created, and then they started mass producing them again by the events of SA2, it wouldn't make sense since they would be without those robots for 50 years. A military force like G.U.N. would not have been without that resource for 50 years and still used the same robots as if nothing happened, they would have come up with an alternative solution.
     
  18. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Fang nabbed it.
     
  19. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

    Neutral Type eimoboy / Maria Fan Member
    Here's something I think it's interesting to think about
    i was watching Pariah695's video about the Classic Sonic timeline, and there is a part where he says that it's confusing how the manual of Sonic 3 states that Knuckles was guarding the Chaos Emeralds, while Sonic was already with them in the first cutscene, then he says that maybe this happened because of the game being split into two halfs, and that in the & Knuckles half, they rewrote the Angel Island's Chaos Emeralds set to be the Master Emerald due to the latter one not showing up in S3 half.
    This instantly made me remember of the Sonic 3 November 93 prototype, where this happens 371 Sem Título_20230217180312.png
    Sonic arrives on Angel Island by a surfboard, when he arrives he's stopped by Knuckles, who doesn't do anything, just warns him to stay way or something.
    So what does this have to do with what I said above? Well, Sonic arrives without the Chaos Emeralds, this maybe implies that he doesn't have them.
    That could mean two things
    1: Sonic was meant to not have the Emeralds in this prototype so it could be consistent with what happens in Sonic 2 (Sonic doesn't have them when he goes to Westside Island) and with what was written in the Sonic 3 manual.
    2: The "number of Emeralds was now made consistent" thing from Sonic Adventure was actually planned way back for this game.
     

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  20. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    The Master Emerald was a concept since even before Knuckles was finalized. It was the "pillar" deep underground mentioned in Sonic the Hedgehog 3's manual.

    [​IMG]
    So it's unlikely to have been a set that was rewritten for Sonic & Knuckles.