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The Sonic the Hedgehog Headcanon Thread of Lore and Time Stones

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by BlackHole, Aug 31, 2022.

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  1. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    I meant "mystical" powers. Shadow is all weirdness with his Chaos things and alien blood and all that. Silver has psychokinesis. Amy reads magical cards (???) and even becomes invisible in 06 (???).

    Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and etc have "normal" powers.

    Green Hill has floating platforms. Maybe it's a natural occurrence due to the Chaos Emeralds being there long ago.

    The evolution made them live less after thousands of years. I don't know.

    Generations and Mania had Sky Sanctuary, at least.

    A never released game that would show things like that Mecha Sonic mk III presented in Sonic Adventure. Trust me.

    The UFOs are the aliens who built the Time Stones.
     
  2. Battons

    Battons

    Shining Force Fan Member
    Random thought.
    Classic Sonic was never in forces because mania was just an illusion so the events which led to him being in the future or another dimension or whatever the hell it was couldn’t have occurred.
     
  3. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Already covered that :eng99:

     
  4. Since Mania Adventures more concretely follows on from Forces given Sonic’s farewell wave, would that mean the entirety of that series is an illusion within the Phantom Ruby?
     
  5. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

    Neutral Type eimoboy / Maria Fan Member
    Mania?

    Okay I'll accept these.
    These are really bizarre, but I think they can make sense somehow, specially the Alien theory, these UFOs only show up and Mania and CD special stages IIRC.

    Again, thanks for answering.



    I really think it's fair to assume that the Classic Sonic from Forces is a illusion, after all, in Mania Encore he returns to Angel Island via a Phantom Ruby portal, the same portal that supposedly wormholes him into Forces, but in the end of Forces, he just disappears, there's no portal or anything, he simply vanishes, indicating that it could really be a illusion created by Tails' mind, explaining his short disappointment. He being a illusion could as well explain why he appears so conveniently to save Tails from a enemy that he don't even know who is or what is yet (Chaos)
    Maybe the Power of Friendship indeed has something to do with it (no matter how hilarious it is)

    Of course, both games want us to believe that it's the real Classic Sonic, he does the same pose in the true end of Mania Mode and in the Forces trailer, in the end of Mania mode there is he going alone to somewhere inside a wormhole, Mania Adventure starts with him doing the same farewell pose that he does when he disappears in Forces, Mania's final boss have a very similar music to Forces' main theme, and a few more things...
     
  6. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    If you consider Sonic Mania Adventures canon, yes. You could say the actual Phantom Ruby survived and took in Phantom Sonic in his own illusionary world. Or something to that effect, I don't consider it canon so don't put further thought into it.
     
  7. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    I misremembered, my bad.
     
  8. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

    Neutral Type eimoboy / Maria Fan Member
    No problem ^^-

    Here's another one, I really don't know if I should post this one here or in the Continuity Love Timeline thread, as this one is related to Timeline, I'll post it here as the people in that thread are focused in other subject, and I don't want to interrupt them.

    In Sonic 2006, when Mephiles shows up for the first time, he makes it very clear that he know about when Shadow sealed him in the Dark Scepter, which makes sense, as that event happened in the past, but what doesn't make sense is Shadow not knowing who Mephiles is.
    If Shadow went back in time knowing who Mephiles is, to trap him inside the Dark Scepter and then return to the present...how should this work?
    Well, the Shadow that we follow during the events of 2006 til before his fight against Silver, hasn't yet gone to the past to seal Mephiles. So, technically, Future Shadow sealed Mephiles in the past, while Present Shadow didn't do it yet, which explains why he doesn't know anything about his past with Mephiles yet in the first half of his story mode.
    Problem is, the whole reason for Shadow to go to the past and seal Mephiles was because he got aware of Mephiles' origin thanks to Eggman, and he needed to do a Chaos Control alongside Silver, who only goes to the Past because of Mephiles.
    So technically, Future Shadow also has to have gone through the same events as Present Shadow in order to have a reason to go back to the past and seal Mephiles
    So, Future Shadow in the beginning also wasn't aware of who was Mephiles.
    A way that this could be explained is that Future Shadow actually didn't meet Mephiles during his journey, becase Mephiles wasn't there, Future Shadow just went to the past and did his job.
    But then, what was the reason for Future Shadow to go to the past and seal Mephiles? And how he did it? If he needed Silver? (Whose was sent to the past by Mephiles)
     
  9. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    Questions and propositions about continuity issues is there. Posts about our own headcanons generally with no solid basis is here.
    So this should be in the other thread. If a moderator sees this, could you move both his post and my reply, please?

    I don't understand 06' sequence of events but I guess this is just bootstrap paradox. The events in the present depend on something in the future going back to the past and interfering. So you don't change anything with the time travel, you just fulfill your destiny.
     
  10. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Silver changes the past, so not quite.
     
  11. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

    Neutral Type eimoboy / Maria Fan Member
    I thought this could only be discussed with headcanon, if you guys (or a moderator) think it's better to move the subject to the continuity thread, just alert me.
    Anyway, the only type of "paradox" that 06 shows to have is the temporal replacement of beings and objects, basically characters traveling in time affects their own existence in time. The whole reason for why you don't see characters meeting past or future versions of themselves is because when the character travels to, let's say, the past, the version of the character that traveled in time, replaces its past version, this law also seems to apply to chaos emeralds, also explaining why doesn't appear more than 7 in the game.
    A certain action of a character with a chaos emerald in the past, can also affect this same character in the future, which explains how Omega, without any time travel methods, appears in the future to help Shadow, Rouge ordered him to do it with a Chaos Emerald, which reactivated him in the Future.
    The game really shows a restriction to beings and objects only (or at least mystic gems)
    In fact, the game makes it clear that timelines work the same as in dragon ball, several timelines, and actions can't change the future of a timeline, only create new timelines.
    This is explicitly show in Silver's story, with his whole objective in the story being to change his future, and even if he does a lot in the present (supposed past of his future), still nothing changes in his timeline. His timeline is clearly a alternate timeline, as the events of his timeline didn't happen in the present at all, in vice versa.

    But that's how it works in 2006 specifically.
    Starting from Rivals this changes, as it was said by Silver multiple times that something that happened in the present brought the chaos (not the character) to hos future. So starting from that game, past, present and future are connected.
     
  12. 06's script certainly doesn't help make the time travel any less confusing, but Shadow sealing Mephiles is clearly intended to be an ontological paradox in which a perfect loop is formed. Indeed, I believe each use of time travel in 06 is predestined.

    Take for example Sonic going back in time to save Elise. Here's how I think the time travel narrative was intended by the writers:
    • Sonic pursues the Egg Carrier through Kingdom Valley, but fails to catch up and watches from afar as it explodes. The people of Soleanna, like Sonic, believe Elise to have perished in the crash. Iblis is not seen being released.
    • Sonic and Silver use double Chaos Control to create a portal, which Sonic enters to arrive a few hours in the past.
    • Sonic boards the Egg Carrier via Aquatic Base. He defeats Eggman and escapes with Elise as the ship crashes. In fact, this is another ontological paradox, and this was always Elise's fate even when Sonic watched from Kingdom Valley.
    • Mephiles kills Sonic, causing Elise to cry and release Iblis.
    • Mephiles merges with Iblis, and the two reform Solaris, who begins an assault on time itself... except not quite. Solaris, a being that transcends time, is the only one capable of making a change to the timeline that is not predestined. From a meta-temporal perspective, the change to the timeline that is the reformation of Solaris has not "happened" yet. Viewing this timeline holistically, we can see how events proceed...
    • Iblis' reign of destruction begins. Elise is presumably killed by Iblis. As far as the people of Soleanna are aware, the Egg Carrier crashed with Elise aboard. This information is made accessible from a database that exists by Silver's time 200 years in the future.
    Put as simply as possible, I think time travel in 06 is rife with ontological paradoxes. The timeline is presented as immutable and in a state that always was/is/will be. Shadow and Silver always travel back in time to seal Mephiles and Iblis. Elise never dies on the Egg Carrier, she is always rescued by Sonic. Sonic is always killed by Mephiles, and Iblis is always released by Elise's tears upon Sonic's death. There are no alternatives to these events that resolve the paradoxes, there paradoxes simply function as part of the overall timeline.

    Solaris reforming and devouring time is the only exception to this rule, the single event that didn't always "happen". As an extra-temporal being, its very existence reflects the only true change resulting in a new timeline - or more aptly, a lack of a timeline. And as we all know, it eventually leads to the premature destruction of Solaris and rebooting of the timeline.

    Of course, you can levy all sorts of criticisms against this thinking and you'd be right. It doesn't fare well against much scrutiny. Nonetheless, I do think this is the basic gist of what the writers were going for with the game's story.
     
  13. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

    Neutral Type eimoboy / Maria Fan Member
    That one really works, but I think only up to a certain point.
    I didn't get it, is Silver's future part of the predestined events?
    What exactly led to his future being at that state?

    Actually I think the predestined events stopped at Sonic and Silver going back a few hours in time to save Elise.
    When Tails reads the database in Silver's future, it clearly says that Elise died at the Egg Carrier crash, so what happens in the perspective of the Present's characters, also happened for their versions that existed in the past of Silver's future. But not everything.
    There was no time travel for the characters in Silver's timeline, the versions that we follow during the present game's events are the ones who experienced time travel.
    And I say this because, clearly, Silver wasn't there when the incident in his past happened, the whole reason why Elise couldn't be saved is because Sonic was alone in Silver's timeline, Silver wasn't born yet at the time.
    And there's Mephiles, someone who clearly also doesn't exist in the future, if exists, was still sealed in the Dark Scepter and was never released.
    Mephiles goes to the future (with Shadow and Rouge) and there, sends Silver and Blaze to the past, past whose its future is altered, leading to the end of each of the 3 stories we see in the game, and to the events of Last Story.
    Why, you ask? Because the whole reason for Sonic dying in the "altered present/past" that wee see, is because of time travel, and the intervention of Silver and Mephiles.
    It's unclear how the Sonic from Silver's timeline died, but he was probably killed by Iblis, and that was how he should have died.
    His death in the modified present/past by the hands of Mephiles isn't what was supposed to happen, it wasn't predestined, because, again, everything only happened because of time travel, Silver and Mephiles.
    Mephiles needs Iblis in his initial flame form to be able to merge with him and form Solaris.
    Since there was no Mephiles in Silver's timeline, Iblis ended going beyond his flame form, and turned into a giant lava magma creature.
    Your predestined events theory is indeed true, but for Silver's timeline only.
    That's why I said that Silver's future is a alternate timeline, because his future works just exactly as Trunks' future from Dragon Ball, Future Trunks' future is how everything should have happened, the death of Goku and everyone, that is the original timeline. Then Future Trunks and Future Cell go back to the past, and interfere, leading to that past they traveled no longer having the future that was predestined, creating a new timeline.
    The exactly same thing happened in 2006, Silver and Mephiles are basically the Trunks and Cell of the story.
    So yeah, Silver's future in 2006 is the original timeline, Sonic, Elise and friends all were killed by Iblis.
    The Sonic timeline we see today where everyone is alive is basically the same thing as the Dragon Ball timeline we follow today.
    None of them are the original, they were modified because the predestined events were broken (and funnily enough, 10 years after Sonic 2006, Trunks' timeline, which was the original, has been erased in Super, just like Silver's timeline, was the original, has been erased. Predestined irony?)

    And in the end, all of this still can't explain the Mephiles situation that I've talked about previously XD.
    Edit: and with all this said, it can be also implied that the sealing of Mephiles wasn't part of the predestined events, cause again, it's something that only happened due to time travel, and the interference of Silver and Mephiles.

    But I appreciate your help ^^
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2023
  14. Frostav

    Frostav

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    Maybe someone has come up with this already but I now have the headcanon that the super emeralds and hyper sonic never returned because the chaos emeralds now are the super emeralds and Super Sonic is what used to be Hyper Sonic. Two reasons for this:

    -The designs of the emeralds in the 3D games much more close resembles the super emeralds

    -More importantly, Super Sonic got a huge power bump in them. In the 2D games he is powerful and fast, yeah, but the 3D games make it clear that Super Sonic is a nigh-invulnerable demigod capable of almost effortlessly destroying anything, including stuff that goes way beyond anything in the classics. Like, he can solo the Final Hazard, Dark Gaia, Metal Overlord, the Titans, Solaris, etc. Super Sonic in the classics still needs multiple hits to merely take down a big eggman machine (YES I KNOW that that's just gameplay mechanics come on this is a headcanon thread LEMME HAVE FUN). Sonic can be hit out of it by one square punch in 3&K but in Unleashed it takes Eggman tricking him and using an entire special machine just to depower Sonic.

    Also, I just had a brain-blast and now believe that Chaos Control is just the Hyper Sonic dash but perfected to go much longer.

    "Okay why are the Super Emeralds now hand-sized instead of bigger than a person like in S3&K" idk lmao
     
  15. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

    Neutral Type eimoboy / Maria Fan Member
    The only explanation I could think for Super Sonic being weaker in the classic games is due to the Emeralds still not being so powerful.
    When Super Sonic was detransformed by Knuckles he was still using the hexagon shaped emeralds.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2023
  16. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Something I'm working on uses Sonic Blast's detail that the Chaos Emeralds can be split into several different coloured jewels so that it also happened after the Perfect Chaos Incident, and the Chaos Emeralds they're collecting early on are these 'shards', so Super Sonic is only a fraction of his actual power.

    I'm also using it to explain how Gerald had a Chaos Emerald 50 years ago on the ARK, despite them apparently being hidden away on the islands. He actually has a South Island Chaos Emerald Fragment, which is why there's only six there.
     
  17. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

    Neutral Type eimoboy / Maria Fan Member
    I think I saw you saying that before, it's a really good explanation, but when exactly did that stop? And how would be the order of the events based on the state of the emeralds? Plus Blast is meant to take place S3&K technically, so when did the pieces returned to the emeralds permanently?
     
  18. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    For me, it stops with Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles, with the Super Emeralds being the fully recombined Chaos Emeralds.

    The order of events would be the timeline I built:
    [​IMG]

    Sonic and Tails collect the Chaos Emeralds from Cocoa Island, South Island and Westside Island and recombine what they can, Robotnik collects the seventh South Island Chaos Emerald from the United Federation and seventh Cocoa Island Chaos Emerald from the Battle Kukku remnants (different Emeralds, however), and Knuckles has the Angel Island set before they disappear and Sonic collects them later.

    Debating on the fifth set being from Sonic Drift or a set Fang collected, to merge the cutscene of Knuckles making off with five but the manual having Fang claim to have already collected them.

    Either way, by Sonic the Hedgehog 3, all five sets are now on Angel Island, and when Sonic collects Angel Island's set and enters the Hidden Palace...

    Sonic Blast happens after, resulting in a Chaos Emerald rebreaking.
     
  19. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

    Neutral Type eimoboy / Maria Fan Member
    That time line is really interesting and explains a lot of stuff, good work, but if there was a rebreak, then when did the recombination happened?
    Drift 2 have only 6 emeralds again, all hexagon-shaped
    Fighters have all 7, with the shape of Master Emerald.
    Then in Pocket Adventure 6 of them are hexagon-shaped, and the one that Eggman takes from Knuckles have a Master-ish shape.
    Two more rebreaks happened maybe?
     
  20. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    They restore it after Sonic Blast. No sense leaving it shattered.

    I'm decontextualizing that as simply Chaos GP graphics they didn't update for the second annual one, since as far as I recall you only see them on menus.

    Sonic Pocket Adventure is a bit more tricky, since you see all of them at the end in their brilliant cut form, when they disperse.
    [​IMG]