don't click here

The Sonic the Hedgehog Headcanon Thread of Lore and Time Stones

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by BlackHole, Aug 31, 2022.

Tags:
  1. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,955
    887
    93
    England
    Complaining
    I think there's something about the rings being unable to be Perfect since some are using Sonic's Green Forest's old placements, thus can't be collected?
     
  2. kazz

    kazz

    16-bait Member
    680
    299
    63
    I've been under the impression for a while that Shadow's levels were originally supposed to be 'Act 2s' for Sonic's levels. City Escape-Radical Highway, Green Forest-White Jungle etc.
     
  3. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,955
    887
    93
    England
    Complaining
    Yeah, I brought that up in the linked thread as well.

    Blue Spikeball suggested the stages could be offshoots, so if you take the sub in Metal Harbour, you end up in White Jungle, while if you take the rocket, you end up in Green Forest as an example off the top of my head.
    Anyway, long and short of it is White Jungle isn't him getting to Rouge, he's on his way and gets intercepted by Sonic. If I recall correctly, Shadow takes two minutes to get through White Forest and fight Sonic, since when Rouge complains about getting locked inside there's about ten minutes left. Sonic's Green Forest shows eight minutes left before the bomb goes off, leaving said remaining two minutes.

    Said eight minutes are offscreen, meaning we can't really confirm if he does or does not use Chaos Control en route to Rouge. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.
     
  4. kazz

    kazz

    16-bait Member
    680
    299
    63
    I never thought about Sky Rail as a predecessor to Pyramid Cave but it'd totally work. Also makes me think of SA2B's Grind Race with how suspiciously similar its aesthetic is to Pyramid Cave's.
     
  5. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,955
    887
    93
    England
    Complaining
    Thank you very much. I think the only one that doesn't have a counterpart for a second Act is Metal Harbour... unless... do we know if Prison Lane was a Sonic stage before being retooled for Tails?

    It's one of the bigger issues with Tails' story: Tails goes in to rescue Sonic from G.U.N., but Amy is the one to get him out with Tails nowhere in sight, and despite trying to get into Prison Island, he's climbing up throughout the level, like he's leaving the place (aka, like Sonic would be), while Robotnik breaking in, in the same manner, during Iron Gate had him mostly dropping down into the facility.

    Meanwhile, Prison Lane definitely sounds like something Sonic would be leaving once freed from the cage that once housed Gerald.

    Note, I've nothing to draw this conclusion from beyond those observations. I don't know if something in the code might confirm it was a Sonic level, or if it'll outright disprove it, it's just a thought I've had.
     
  6. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

    Member
    1,099
    851
    93
    ...I mentioned that fight. And my point stays the same: it's a short distance and incomparable to the distance from the ARK to the Earth.
    I don't think any of Tails's levels make sense.

    The problem with Prison Lane is what you said: Tails goes to bail him out, but Amy is the one who does it. And in Mission Street, Sonic is saying he'll distract the cops for Tails to get away, but...then Tails is followed by GUN anyway. Then in the following cutscene the following morning, Sonic is STILL running from cops "on the air and on the ground" while Tails is fine. It's my belief that Radical Highway would've taken place where Mission Street is, which is why I don't buy City Escape and Radical Highway being connected to each other as two acts. Prison Lane seems like it was originally meant for Shadow, since his objective was to plant the bomb, but we never see that.

    Eternal Engine sorta-kinda works, but the objective is to destroy the Eclipse Cannon's power source? Which he apparently does, but then it's operational anyway. That doesn't really make sense to me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2024
  7. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,955
    887
    93
    England
    Complaining
    Sorry, missed that. Regardless, I was only evidencing that Shadow can use Chaos Control without a Chaos Emerald, since you noted he "can't use Chaos Control while the emerald's stuck in the machine." The extent of which he can use Chaos Control without is outside what the quoted post from Sonic Prime covered. He can use Chaos Control, just possibly not as powerful, we don't know.

    I think the intent is that he's attacking the power source for the computers, not the Eclipse Cannon itself, so when Sonic makes the switch and the computers switch to a back-up power system, the computer would detect the same amount of Chaos Emeralds and not report an issue. If he does so while it's active, then Robotnik would be alerted a Chaos Emerald was removed and put right back in, which would be suspicious.
     
  8. kazz

    kazz

    16-bait Member
    680
    299
    63
    For what it's worth, the Big Foot fight uses Mission Street's aesthetic, not Radical Highway's. Mission Street seems like it could work OK as a speed stage but I just can't envision the same for Prison Lane as-is.

    It could be that originally Radical Highway had Mission Street's visuals, which they then changed when they decided it belonged in the Dark story.
     
  9. Mr. Cornholio

    Mr. Cornholio

    Member
    165
    96
    28
    Honestly that seems decently plausible? That one seems a fair bit easier to navigate with Sonic as-is before it was reworked to better fit the mech gameplay style. Both the Goal Ring for Mission Street and Big Foot kinda have the same 'open end area' which would make a transition into that fight feel more natural.
     
  10. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,955
    887
    93
    England
    Complaining
    Could also be the branching system idea Blue Spikeball suggested: you go left in City Escape, you go to Radical Highway. You go right, you go to Mission Street.
     
  11. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

    Member
    1,099
    851
    93
    Did SA2 originally have a branching path system? I've never heard of that.

    It's strange to consider SA2 had stages added rather than removed during development.
     
  12. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,955
    887
    93
    England
    Complaining
    Yeah, one of the examples was of a submarine in Metal Harbour leading to a different level.

    Here's the 'The Sonic Adventure 2 that almost was...' thread that covers a few of these.
     
  13. Mr. Cornholio

    Mr. Cornholio

    Member
    165
    96
    28
    The Retro Wiki claims that Shadow the Hedgehog (the game) actually took the branching pathway concept from Adventure 2. Apparently it's something they wanted to do, but were 'running out of time' and so Adventure 2 just junked it. Where does this come from exactly? There's no references here and looking at the other citations for this article, they don't seem to make mention of this.

    Not that I doubt it (it is weird the submarine was mentioned by a source that has close ties to Sega), but I'm curious if any developers can remember any specific examples. Metal Harbor also has that weird Missile sequence that force drops you or you can force drop yourself. Neither choice really makes a difference in the area you drop down to and I think it's the only spectacle like it in any of Sonic's stages.

    On the topic of Sonic Adventure 2 while it's all the buzz here, something that's chipped at my mind regarding the last few bits of the game:

    ...How does Shadow know to go to the Eclipse Cannon's Chamber in the Hero Route? In the Dark Route, Eggman beats Tails and is able to radio Shadow and tell him he detects something making it's way to the core. I assume since Tails loses in this route Eggman is able to call him without Tails interrupting.

    However, this doesn't seem to happen in the Hero Route. So who would've informed Shadow to head down there in this case?

    I also don't quite understand why Eggman is in the Eclipse Cannon Control Room in the Final Story if you assume the second mech boss fight in the Hero Route is the canon one. Wouldn't have Tails notice Eggman getting up to take off into the Control Room?
     
  14. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,955
    887
    93
    England
    Complaining
    I think people put way too much stock into the idea of the Hero and Dark stories being different. They're the same story and same outcomes, just from different perspectives. Hence Robotnik grabbing the Chaos Emerald when Tails and Amy are distracted in the Hero Story, then using it in the Dark Story, leading to the Last Story, as well as the multitude of cutscenes where the characters fight, but neither 'loses'.

    Of course, then you have the cutscene where he announces he has the Chaos Emerald directly after the Tails fight, which I think is what is causing confusion. I assume that's him jumping the G.U.N. and saying he has it as he's fending off Tails/feigning defeat with the Chaos Emerald lying nearby. Also, the timescales being funny: it apparently took Sonic 10 minutes to go from the exploding capsule to the ARK, with the cutscene with the explosion being 33 minutes from firing, while the cutscene where he reappears on the ARK being 21 minutes from firing.

    Might go through and see how many level have a 'canonical' time cap...
     
  15. Shadow pretty clearly activates Chaos Control before making direct contact with the Emeralds, though he’s obviously mere feet away from them. In any case, I do agree it’s more likely that Eggman was primarily responsible for transport between the planet and ARK.

    IMG_0830.jpeg

    I think placing the Chaos Emerald so early in the level is intended to provide a narrative justification for Shadow’s Chaos powers, though I seem to recall it being said that Shadow can technically build up his gauge to activate Chaos Control/Blast even without collecting the Emerald. Someone with more info may need to confirm, and at any rate one could still dismiss this as a quirk of gameplay rather than narratively canonical.

    There are a few oddities related to the timestamps. For instance, the Japanese game states the countdown is at 20 minutes when Shadow observes the destruction of Sonic’s capsule, but 21 minutes when Sonic warps back in front of Knuckes. The English version instead gives the same time of 21 minutes and 7 seconds for both cutscenes, which makes more sense.

    It does seem that Eggman radios Rouge and Shadow mid-battle with Tails, presumably after briefly acquiring the Emerald. After that, it seems Tails was able to get back into the fight and eject Eggman from his walker, though with the Emerald within grabbing distance. With a minute and a half remaining in the countdown (1 minute 30 seconds in Japanese, 1 minutes 33 seconds in English), Sonic tells Tails and Amy to look out the window, distracting them long enough for Eggman to steal the emerald. In both languages, Eggman is back in the central control room with 40 seconds remaining in the countdown. I guess he had some sort of fast track to get there so quickly, perhaps the same teleportation beam discussed earlier.

    I imagine that the pre rendered cutscene of the cannon backfiring as Sonic smiles is actually concurrent to Eggman’s cutscene of placing the emerald in the control room. It would explain why Eggman seems unaware of any issues with the cannon, and would align the cannon attempting to fire more closely with its countdown. At least some of the danger warnings on the control room readout would therefore be contextualized as a response to Sonic’s meddling rather than only in response to Gerald’s program. (On that note, it is kind of humorous that Sonic disabling the cannon proved inconsequential since the colony drop rendered it moot anyway.)
     
  16. kazz

    kazz

    16-bait Member
    680
    299
    63

    If you took out the shootable props this could totally be mistaken for a Radical Highway beta design. Certain gimmicks like the bridges collapsing kinda work better in this version if you ask me.
     
  17. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,955
    887
    93
    England
    Complaining
    I would assume the Chaos Emerald ended up getting lost in the scuffle, rather than Tails getting it back during the fight, hence it just lying there after the fight.
     
  18. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

    Member
    1,099
    851
    93
    Not exactly confirmation...even that post says most of that seems pretty sketchy. There are a ton of magazine articles on the wiki about SA2 and none of them mention branching storylines.

    Speaking of early SA2 development...anyone else find these two pieces of art showing Terios and Sonic to be extremely similar? One of them is almost certainly a reference for the other, and both of them were drawn for SA2.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    What are you talking about? "Force drop"? You mean you can jump off the rocket early?
    They are the same story, but the final scene before Last Story doesn't make sense for either side. Hero Story implies Tails defeating Eggman and Sonic defeating Shadow happens at the exact same time, but Shadow's conversation with Rouge happens after Sonic is ejected, meaning if both sides are correct, then Eggman must've told Shadow to intercept mid-battle. Sonic blowing up the Eclipse Cannon, along with reaching the research lab, pretty much requires that he wins and Shadow loses, unless there's a scene after that fight that was cut. The only way it makes sense is if Shadow retreats, since it doesn't matter if the Cannon is destroyed or not for his true goal. But if Sonic wins, then Eggman putting the last emerald in and laughing as if he's won makes no sense, unless he somehow didn't know Sonic had destroyed it.

    Sonic X depicts Eggman winning the fight against Tails, stealing the Emerald, and telling Shadow to intercept afterwards. It also shows that he knows the Cannon is damaged, but attempts to fire it anyway in a desperate play.
     
  19. I imagine this is a similar situation to Sonic and Silver’s battle in 06. Canonically Sonic loses the fight and only survives thanks to Amy’s intervention. To allow for this in Sonic’s story, there is additional footage at the start of the cutscene showing Silver momentarily defeated before getting a second wind and pinning Sonic. Likewise, while Sonic ultimately has to win the fight against Shadow, one could rationalize Shadow winning in the Dark story by inserting another such scene in which Sonic gets up again after being briefly defeated.


    I spoke about this a few posts ago, but I think one could think of the events in this order, with some offscreen occurrences resolving any discrepancies.

    33 minutes
    Eggman demands the final emerald from Sonic, before trapping him in a capsule and ejecting it into space.

    21 minutes (21 minutes, 7 seconds in English)
    Sonic warps back onto the ARK near Knuckles, and declares he will destroy the cannon by placing the artificial emerald into its barrel. He begins his journey through Final Rush.

    20 minutes (21 minutes, 7 seconds in English)
    Shadow witnesses Sonic’s capsule explode, believing him to be dead.

    Tails, believing Sonic to be dead, engages Eggman in battle.

    UNSEEN: Eggman briefly gains the upper hand in his battle with Tails and acquires the final Chaos Emerald.

    Unspecified time:
    Shadow confronts Rouge in the central control room. Eggman radios in, proclaiming that he has the seventh emerald, and that he detects someone (Sonic, unbeknownst to him) making his way to the cannon’s barrel. Shadow exits to pursue the intruder and makes his way through Final Chase.

    UNSEEN: Tails recovers sufficiently to engage Eggman in battle once more.

    5 minutes, 44 seconds
    Shadow confronts Sonic outside the Ark.

    UNSEEN: The two battle with Sonic ultimately emerging as the victor.

    1 minute, 30 seconds (1 minute, 33 seconds in English)
    Tails stands before a defeated Eggman and receives a call from Sonic, telling him to look outside. A groggy Eggman clandestinely steals the final emerald.

    UNSEEN: Sonic places the fake emerald into the barrel of the Eclipse Cannon. Meanwhile, Eggman makes his way to the central control room via remote teleporter, unaware of Sonic’s actions.

    40 seconds
    In the central control room, Eggman places the final emerald as the cannon prepares to fire, before danger signs appear on the control readout.

    Outside the Ark, the cannon attempts to fire, but malfunctions as Sonic stands victorious.
     
  20. Mr. Cornholio

    Mr. Cornholio

    Member
    165
    96
    28
    My bad! Poor wording on my part. Metal Harbor's Missile sequence actually allows the player to let go of the handle bar that Sonic hangs onto a bit early. If I remember right I think you just had to hold B/the roll button or wiggle the analog stick around.

    While it's useful for time attacking purposes (or one particular mission later on), the game never outright tells you that you can do this and that was always weird to me. As a kid I figured it was basically a cutscene you had to watch and you couldn't do anything until Sonic let go of the handle himself.

    It's possible it might have been added so a player could jump to the end quicker, but it stands out to me since I think it's the only weird psuedo-cutscene thingy of it's kind in any of Sonic's stages and I could kinda see it working as a way to choose an alternative way to end the level (Sonic can either ride the missile out of there or choose to continue exploring on ground). That's more just me making stuff up though rather than anything definitive.


    X does a lot of little things to Adventure 2's storyline in it's adaption I really quite like the more I hear about it. I really should sit down and watch the full thing.

    I kinda like headcannoning that Eggman is the victor in the second battle anyways since I guess if you were to just pretend Sonic never walkies Tails, Eggman being the victor leads into Shadow investigating the Eclipse Cannon and the Dark Route finale a bit nicer, which are significantly more important story events. Tails is the first to speak in the Hero ending cutscene anyways ('Sonic, I did it...'), so maybe assuming Eggman being the victor is canon Sonic never bothers to try the walkie-talkie and just surprises Tails that he's alive?

    It is also nice since this was the last time Tails acts completely independently for a bit (not counting Heroes/06 where he's fighting alongside friends). Maybe him losing the fight here is what causes his confidence to plummet without Sonic in Unleashed/Forces. I'm probably looking too deeply into things (and it kinda clashes with Tails' confidence in the Final Story), but damn it I want Eggman to have one victory here.

    I guess I also like the idea of Eggman being the victor here since it makes his line in the Prison Island fight in the Hero Route serve as a bit of foreshadowing ('...but the next time we meet, you won't be so lucky!').

    (Apologies for the multiple edits to this post. I am really disorganized with my thoughts and wrote a lot of this in a rush.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2024