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The Sonic the Hedgehog Headcanon Thread of Lore and Time Stones

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by BlackHole, Aug 31, 2022.

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  1. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    As you said, they "retconned" Super Sonic's design in 2006, so I don't see how that discredits pre-06 games like Battle or Shadow.

    That said, you don't need to look at any of those games for evidence that Gerald studied Angel Island. SA2 had plenty of evidence already, like the Artificial Chaos, or the emerald altar replica (which is even brought up by Knuckles), or the fact the core of the ARK uses Lost World-esque architecture (and even a LW-esque water slide), which looks awfully out of place in a hi-tech space colony.

    The ARK-Angel Island connections were there since the beginning.
     
  2. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    In SA2, I don't. The only evidence we have for that game is that the Artificial Chaos Series's heads look identical to Chaos 0's head. But that's a graphic detail that's unrelated to any actual story details, so I don't consider it truth. If you want to argue actual present day canon, Maria directly states in Shadow 05 that the Artificial Chaos are modeled based on the god of an ancient civilization. That was something written by an actual writer, so...unless there's some other god that looks exactly like Chaos that we don't know about, offscreen, then we have to assume they really are based on Chaos, in-universe.

    And furthermore, there's literally no reason for you to be as aggressive and dickish towards me as you have been your last few posts. I don't know what your beef with me is, as I've done no such thing to you or anyone else. I already admitted that this was the wrong thread for this kind of debate and apologized for it. So if you want to continue this drama, take it up in a DM or post in the actual continuity thread.
     
  3. kazz

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    And what reference would he have for that god of ancient culture if not the Perfect Chaos mural he couldn't possibly have had access to according to you?

    Don't get all imperious about what's ultimately your own headcanon if you can't handle me being annoyed by it. We're both equally entitled to disagreeing with each other.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2024
  4. DefinitiveDubs

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    The fact that the Perfect Chaos mural looks absolutely nothing like Artificial Chaos in any way. In fact, it's not even clear in that mural that the monster is made of water. It looks like a sea dragon. So if he was aware of info related to Chaos, to the point where he knew it was made of water and knew what Chaos 0 looked like, then it definitely was not based on the Perfect Chaos mural. Eggman knew about Chaos, so if he knew about it, then did HE see the mural? No. He says how he knew about him.
    So clearly, other records describing Chaos, even Perfect Chaos, exist other than that one single mural. There's nothing stopping Gerald from having seen some of those instead, especially since if Eggman found them, then they're probably out in the open somewhere. They're probably not locked behind a labyrinth of deadly traps and, let's not forget, need gold and silver statues to open.

    This isn't "my own headcanon". I’m not emotionally attached to this. All I’ve done is connect the dots. Every point, every piece of evidence, and every argument I’ve made in regards to this, has been based on real material that’s present in the series's writing and was put there by a Sonic Team writer. This isn't some theory that I came up with, I genuinely believe that this is what was intended by the developers. Again: if you want to believe in this as a headcanon, then I'm not going to take that away from you. Where I draw the line is saying that what I'm saying is unsubstantiated.

    I'm not going to comment on this any further since it's off-topic.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2024
  5. Kyro

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    Whats stopping the existence of other tablets covering the hidden palace prophecy, then? That seems like a weird place to draw the arbitrary line, just that some vague tablets exist, we dont know what they depicted, but we can extrapolate that to Gerald but not anything else? Why not? If anything, the inference that Eggman would have access to information about Chaos, and we can infer Gerald had some as well, what's stopping him from having found more? We never see it stated (that i know of) that he found some mural or tablets depicting the emerald shrine, so where's that one come from? Do we just have to assume it's a coincidence? How would he even know of the Master emerald specifically irrelevant of the chaos emeralds themselves?

    Not trying to grill you specifically Dubs but i dont think its nearly as open and shut as you've been implying, and i dont even fully subscribe to mural theory, but the pieces are absolutely there to fill in the gaps imo. Maybe there'd be more evidence of it if we were talking about a series that cared more about lore and good continuity/writing lol
     
  6. Playing devil’s advocate for Dubs for a moment, I think his point is that there is evidence in the series that suggests an unseen source of information on Chaos was available to Gerald. He must have had a fair amount of information on Chaos greater than that provided by the Lost World mural in order to create liquid beings that resemble Chaos 0 more than Perfect Chaos. Therefore, an alternative source must exist.

    In contrast, there is no evidence within the series suggesting an alternative source of information on the Hidden Palace mural exists. I clearly don’t think that it’s impossible that a duplicate exists, but in fairness to Dubs, there is no positive evidence that a duplicate does exist.
     
  7. kazz

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    It already feels presumptuous to say Gerald must have looked at a tablet that was already implied to be first found by Eggman while building Final Egg. Like we have to assume Gerald also found that specific artifact first, put it back for Eggman to find later, and then looked no further into the temple that artifact clearly came from. Why not? Where's this evidence that Gerald looked at that specific tablet but not the Lost World mural? All the similarities between Lost World and Sonic's part of Cannon's Core paint a pretty clear picture to me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2024
  8. Kyro

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    Don't get me wrong, I actually agree with you and Dubs on that point. The information must exist both by what we've seen and heard in the games, I just think its strange to draw the line there when there is more evidence in SA2 that Gerald had some source of information beyond that.

    Im not too invested in the topic nor have i read *all* thats been discussed in regard to it, I just wanted to poke my head in and give my take. IMO, i think its pretty reasonable to at least assume Geraldd had access to more than just Chaos, and the whole of the biolizard chamber and last section of cannons core implies such, even if the game isnt explicit about it. Or at least, I dont think its an accident that it just happened to be that way.

    My personal wonder is, did Gerald see murals of the shrine, or did he visit angel island. Its hard to prove either way but I do actually lean towards him not visiting himself. The angel island shrine as depicted in SA1's present is fairly run down, decrepit, and doesnt even have the overhang anymore. But we know in the past it looked much closer to the approximation in the ark. I doubt the Shrine only fell into disrepair over the last 50 years between shadows creation and SA1/SA2

    Clearly, the only answer is: Tikal showed him flashbacks too :v

    Edit: Sorry, ninja'd while typing this up at work, just including the quote now
     
  9. Kilo

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    It was brought up earlier that this absolutely could've been a possibility with the Death Egg crashing twice into Angel Island during 3K.
     
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  10. Zephyr

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    Regarding Gerald finding Angel Island, I don't think it's as unreasonable of an idea as it's being made out to be.

    For starters, he's demonstrably been involved in shady classified government shit. That he knows "this mythical floating island is real actually" is just one more bit of "X-Files government paranormal conspiracy" shit that's completely in-line with what we see him up to in SA2 and Shadow 05. No, I'm not saying there's "positive evidence" that Gerald was involved in additional conspiracies, I'm saying that "but average people didn't know the island was real" isn't the hole it's being presented as. Because Gerald is not average people. He's the kind of guy who knows things most people don't.

    Second, just because he knew about something doesn't mean GUN knew about it. We know that (prior to losing his granddaughter and going crazy, at least), he seems to have been a genuinely good dude? So, if he stumbled onto the holy grail of this civilization he clearly holds dearly, then it makes sense that he wouldn't report its existence and compromise the privacy and safety of its last vestiges to the shady government organization he's working with, to the point I'd find it believable that he wouldn't even record it and give someone the chance to find it, opting instead to keep it all in his head. Granted if he did find the mythical island, it's unclear if that would have been during his working with GUN, and if so, how off their radar he would have been able to get. Either way, I'm not saying there's "positive evidence" that Gerald deliberately omitted explicit references to Angel Island Being Real After All to protect the remnants of their culture, but he is (was) a good guy and possibly an Echidnaboo.

    Finally, Knuckles is gullible and trusting of Eggman when they first meet. If his parents or grandparents or whatever were paranoid, you'd imagine they'd have passed that paranoia down onto him. While Gerald may have had to punch a Knuckles clansman in the face to access the mural, he also may not have needed to; maybe it was a friendly first contact. Hell, the mural depicts a guy with a face like Gerald's contesting a fairy for the Emerald. Maybe they thought Gerald was good? Maybe that's why Knuckles thought Eggman could be trusted at all? Food for thought. No, I'm not saying there's "positive evidence" that whatever member of Knuckles' family was around would have been as gullible as Knuckles was, but there is a mural with a morally ambiguous Robotnik face in their hidden palace, and the only living member of the Knuckles tribe trusted a Robotnik when first meeting him.
     
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  11. Kyro

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    this actually completely slipped my mind, thank you
     
  12. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    I think it's over in the 'Who wrote "The Truth of 50 Years Ago"?' thread, so I'll quote it over.


    Also this, just to be safe:
    To establish that the Altar of Emerald has always been separate, conceptually, to the Hidden Palace.
     
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  13. BigTigerM

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    I don't think it's too crazy to interpret the Lost World depiction of Perfect Chaos as being made of water, based on the actual mural itself - you can see that on the wave iconography underneath PC, a few of the blue shards actually lap around the wave forms themselves with the exact same colouring, leading up to the head.

    if I were an anthropologist, and I saw a civilization attempting to convey a serpentine sea creature, my first thought wouldn't go to interpreting those as organic tendrils. Both Occam's Razor and syllogism would state that if the creature is blue, and so are those waves, then the whole thing is probably water. As an artist, I'd do my best to satisfy Sonic Team superiors' artistic needs and draw all we have of the creature we barely even have a functioning model for. If I were both at the same time, I'd try to show the whole creature - thus, basically the head.

    Edit: Changes made for clarification, and spoilered addition of said PC mural.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2024
  14. Kilo

    Kilo

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    While I'm not saying that it would rule out that someone could interpret it as water, with the way the Echidnas tiled it, it does make the waves look like they have scales and could be interpreted as tentacles. It could go one way or the other, it is all about an individuals interpretation.
     
  15. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

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    Somewhat related, but I've always been of the opinion that the Artificial Chaos were created the same way that Chaos himself was created: a regular chao, over time, mutated back into the form of the ancients due to exposure to the Chaos/Master Emerald. That means that artificial Chaos were actually chao that were experimented upon. No wonder they went crazy and nearly destroyed the ARK.

    But I agree, Gerald had to have had some sort of access to information on Chaos, likely in the form of tablets similar to the ones Eggman found. That actually brings up a good counterpoint to my argument in the 50 Years Ago thread, he had to have had knowledge of how Chaos came to be, and that would probably necessitate some sort of depiction of the Chaos Altar.
     
  16. Deep Dive Devin

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    Artificial Chaos are robots, though. They're powered by Chaos Drives, right?

    Maybe not, I dunno, but Shadow the game heavily implies that Black Doom is the one controlling them during that incident. Their eyes are even supposed to be red IIRC, the game just places the effect in the wrong spot and nobody fixed it.
     
  17. BlackHole

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    Yeah, they're robots. As a kid, I thought they had a single red eye in the middle of their face, didn't see that it was a robotic Chaos head with green eyes at the bottom until years later. Still makes me wonder where Gerald got the idea that Chaos had laser eyes...
     
  18. Ura

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    During his research, Gerald found some old Superman comics and, inspired by his heat vision, decided to be historically inaccurate and give them some cool laser eyes :ruby:
     
  19. kazz

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    Perfect Chaos can shoot lasers :V
     
  20. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    Per SA2 Perfect Guide:
    Personally, I much prefer Prima's explanation, that they were created by GUN after the events of SA1 because they wanted a Chaos army. I mean, all of GUN's other robots are up there, and I have an issue with assuming they've been in operation the entire time, and that GUN's technology and designs have remained stagnant over the course of 50 years.