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The Sonic the Hedgehog Headcanon Thread of Lore and Time Stones

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by BlackHole, Aug 31, 2022.

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  1. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Responding to this here since it's a headcanon explanation.

    Mephiles did what he did because he can not go to a point in time he was already at in his past, but could drop someone else off to run interference. He just needed the right sucker, which was Silver.

    Mephiles could not unite with Iblis as when Iblis took a physical form it 'gained' it's own mind, which prevented Mephiles becoming the mind in question. A primal, bestial mind, but a mind nontheless. He could not go back to when Iblis was released because he was already at that point in time fighting Shadow in the Dusty Desert.

    With Silver causing interference, either he would see Iblis released earlier, when he wasn't stuck fighting Shadow, be freed up from his fight with Shadow and can thus beeline to Iblis, or Iblis' release would be delayed enough for him to reach/cause it himself, and merge while Iblis had no mind to prevent it. If none of the above, well what's he lost beyond a bit longer looking for another sucker?

    I wonder if... might be an interesting prequel comic, this idea I just had.
     
  2. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    Not a fan of this explanation - Mephiles is more than happy to send other characters back to times where they already exist, and characters travel this way with the Chaos Emeralds too.

    I still prefer the idea that Iblis is released by Elise's death but Mephiles can't fuse with this form, only when released from her crying. Most of what he does is done to cement the relationship between Sonic and Elise - he sends Silver back to provide enough of a distraction for Sonic to allow Elise to be re-kidnapped by Eggman. He could've killed Sonic at any time but it wouldn't have the emotional impact on Elise without all they'd gone through together first.
     
  3. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Never said other characters were subject to the limitation, only Mephiles. As (half of) a God, different rules may apply to him than it would others running around with miraculous gemstones with the ultimate power.

    And as you said, Mephiles sends others to varying points in time, but consider that he himself doesn't seem to go with them, nor does he go with the simplest option of finding where Iblis was released in the original timeline, then going back to the then and fusing.

    As a time travelling entity, a lot of things don't make sense unless there's some unspecified limitation, which is why I believe it to be that two of him specifically can't be at the same point in time.

    For instance, why didn't he go back in time and break the Sceptre of Darkness to free himself before the events of the game, giving himself more headway and one less opponent in Shadow?
    He can't, he's already then.

    Why not go back and herd himself to Iblis at the initial incident?

    I don't think, at any point, there's two Mephiles in the same point in time, outside of the clones you see in his final boss fight.

    Except Iblis is out and about in the future, in a future where Silver didn't go back and interfere. So something caused Elise to cry in the original timeline, all Mephiles would have to do is go to that point in time and place, as mentioned above.
     
  4. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    I thought Iblis was released because Elise had died?
     
  5. Why would Mephiles get entangled in fights with Shadow, thus preventing him from being present for the release of Iblis, instead of uniting with Iblis? Wouldn’t that be his first priority?
     
  6. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    So then why not just kill Elise and be done with it?

    The present self that's locking his future self out wouldn't know Elise was going to die and release Iblis.
     
  7. But why would Mephiles bother with Shadow at all? Upon being released from the scepter, wouldn’t he immediately want to go to when and where Iblis is released?
     
  8. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    If he needed Iblis to be released via Elise's crying, then this somehow could make sense. He couldn't just kill Elise because he couldn't join Iblis that way (somehow).
     
  9. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    Actually reading the bit you quoted might help.

    If he didn't already know this, when did he learn it? We can see from his form that he sent Silver back before fighting Shadow in both Flame Core and Dusty Desert - if he didn't know then, why did he send Silver back? If he did know then... why did he send Silver back? He wasn't around at all during the time of Iblis' release at this point, he could just go straight there.

    This "simplest option" is available to him with or without the restriction. In fact, it seems as though the first thing he does on release is travel to the future to find out when Iblis was released, and that's when he sends Silver back.

    I agree, which is why I believe he has to create the conditions for Iblis' proper release though Elise crying.

    He never goes back in time to before he's released from the Scepter, but that doesn't imply a one-Mephiles limit. It's not uncommon for time travel to be restricted to the creation of the time machine, "creation" in this case being his release from the Scepter. He also never sends anyone else back before his release either - why doesn't he send someone else to break the Scepter earlier to give himself more headway, or send someone else to herd himself to Iblis at the initial incident?

    The same is true for every character in the game except for Sonic and Omega - this doesn't imply a rule.
     
  10. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Not sure why I didn't get a notification of this, sorry.

    I'm sorry, I was rather tired. That's my error.

    Was it not established Iblis was released just with Elise's tears? I don't think they ever establish another release mechanism: if it were to be released with Elise's death, no crying just dying, then all the Duke did was delay the inevitable and doom his people a few decades later rather than right that second. I mean, I suppose they could be planning to just transfer Iblis on Elise's death to the next monarch, but that's never established.

    He sent Silver back to before Sonic and Shadow's story, which he can't go to personally since he's in that timezone, trapped but there. It's not spacial based that's preventing him, it's temporal based: he can't be in the same when, not the same where.

    He sent Silver back to mess up the timeline to alter the present and create a new timeline where his Present self could merge with Iblis.

    As from when he learned he couldn't travel to his own past, probably the first time he tried unless he instinctively knows. God of Time and all that.

    Ah the fun of temporal shenanigans: figuring out the Personal Timeline over the Overall Timeline.

    Right, so first off let's establish the timeline of events of the main three stories:
    [​IMG]
    Tails finds out Elise dies two days after the Day of the Sun festival, characters see each other multiple times, yadda yadda.

    So, attaching Mephiles on, I'll go with your idea first: that he immediately goes to the future, researches, then goes and finds Silver.

    [​IMG]

    So, first enquiry: how does Mephiles know of Sonic? I'm assuming my "Blaze learned about Sonic" headcanon applies, except with Mephiles instead of Blaze since if he time travelled straight to the future, he wouldn't know who Sonic was: he never saw Sonic before that point, after all, and if he has to research when Iblis awakens, then I would assume he's not omniscient. Do you have an alternate answer, might I ask?

    Second enquiry: why does he seem to pop back in time to direct Silver to the Radical Train briefly, then go back to the future to fight Shadow? I'm just assuming this based on his form: he turns crystalline in 'vs Shadow' and doesn't seem to revert after, so it would have to be before that point if so, but if he jumped straight to the future then he'd have to come back to do so. I would assume he can revert, we just don't see it, but this is your interpretation so I don't want to overstep.

    Otherwise, my interpretation is as follows:
    [​IMG]

    I probably should've made it clearer, my error: to me, the 'vs Omega' crystalline appearance is him assuming the form 'early' due to Silver's interference in the timeline and E-123 Omega prompting him into that form. There's not enough changes yet to enable him to get to Iblis, but it's getting there with the final push coming from Sonic and Silver after Kingdom Valley. It's a bit hard to visualise this without dedicating an afternoon to drawing lines in image editors.

    He does seem to send Silver to before his release in Kingdom Valley: the opening of Shadow's story has Robotnik conspicuously absent from his base, when usually he would be at the front line to repel an intruder like Shadow. Not even a quick voice line indicating he's present when the Egg Cerberus is deployed, and Shadow instead refers to it as a guard dog. The only time we know he's not there prior to when Rouge comes back from the future with Team Sonic is when Robotnik's busy attacking the Festival of the Sun.

    However, it's not explicitly stated as far as I recall, so if you want you can extend it to be the night before the Festival of the Sun.

    Except Shadow does cover his own past: 10 years ago, when he'd still be sealed on Prison Island from 40 years prior to that. Kind of wonder how G.U.N. reacted to that, if there were any security cameras that survived and caught Shadow running around...

    Mephiles still needs to learn information: he didn't know who Shadow was until Shadow introduced himself 10 years ago. Mephiles didn't see what happened to Iblis, so why would he know Iblis was sealed inside Elise? The only one who can really verify what happened was unconscious and unaware at the time, and Robotnik investigating only seems to get the understanding he needs the Princess of Soleanna and the Chaos Emeralds.

    Right, why did I come back here... oh, right.

    Headcanon: the Wing Fortress of Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive) is an extension of the more vast Sky Fortress. The number 29 and 00 are where that particular Wing Fortress connects to the Sky Fortress when docked, with 00 being a clearing amongst Section 29.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2023
  11. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    The fact Iblis is free in the future implies that he was released when Elise died in the Egg Carrier's crash.

    Besides, it stands to reason that he would be released when his vessel dies. If Elise no longer exists, there is no vessel to contain Iblis.
     
  12. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Or it dies with unless the Princess cries before death, since the end of the game shows Solaris can be extinguished. I would imagine a burning airship crashing and blowing up around you, plus a lifetime of repression would warrant a single tear.

    They really should've been clearer, they only establish the crying as the reason for release: the Duke has time to request Elise not cry, but not enough to tell Silver "also, might wanna prepare another vessel after her, just fyi."

    But I imagine this is going to be a long, long debate if we keep going about it, so shall we just leave it be?
     
  13. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    I won't go too in depth on this because most of the queries have been answered and it's just a case of "I guess it's a bit more reasonable but I like my way better", but I just wanted to respond to this:
    Both of these are good points and not easy to answer. The first could probably be shrugged off with a "he asked Iblis I guess" but I don't have an answer for the second.

    If he can revert then his form is irrelevant to his personal timeline and basically any interpretation is valid since we never actually see him travel in time. I assume he travels to the future immediately since he seems to disappear in the same bubble as Shadow and Rouge, who do get sent to the future, but for all I know he just went to get a McRib.
     
  14. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    As fair a reason as any.

    To be fair, Mephiles does seem a bit screwy in that scene. The eldritch abomination in question does a twirl as he leaves, screen right.

    16:20


    Clearly, he's on a food high after that McRib.
     
  15. I understand Mephiles needing to find out where Iblis is, but that’s not my primary objection. According to your theory, after being released Mephiles first messes around with Shadow in both the future and the present, and only after that discovers where Iblis is. Why does he not investigate Iblis first? Why does he fight with Shadow at all, especially if doing so runs the risk of locking him out of the appropriate place and time?

    EDIT: Also, when he confronts Shadow in Flame Core, Mephiles has enough historical knowledge to explain what happens to Shadow in the future… but not where and when Iblis was released?
     
  16. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Pragmatism, as he knows Shadow is the type to hunt him down and stop him after 10 years ago. Shadow displays several times an intent to hunt the Dark down, such as abandoning a path home to the Present: you think Shadow's going to let up when he's going for Iblis when its out?

    Now, if he were to lure Shadow to a isolated location while his new timeline and freedom takes effect, then beelines for Sonic...

    That was Future Mephiles in the Flame Core, who lived through the events.
    Present Mephiles... does seem to know about E-123 Omega's future fight with Shadow at Wave Ocean, so it's not perfect. I'll work on it.