The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

Where do you stand on the split timeline?

  1. Makes sense

    26 vote(s)
    20.3%
  2. I hate it

    44 vote(s)
    34.4%
  3. It's alternate dimensions, not split timelines

    18 vote(s)
    14.1%
  4. Doesn't matter either way

    40 vote(s)
    31.3%
  1. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

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    While they might have been neat to have around during Sonic Heroes like they were originally planned to, I don't think adding them into the Modern cast now will just clutter things up, unfortunately.

    This is not to say that the expansive cast of characters is a bad thing at all like many might claim, but Sonic Team needs to figure out when it's appropriate to use some characters in a story and when not. Just because Big the Cat existed when SA2 was being made doesn't mean he has to be an integral part of the story, likewise the same for Chaotix and Sonic 06, there is a time and a place for certain characters. Sonic Forces went way too far in having every (relevant) Modern character present even though the majority of them don't have much relevance to the plot at hand. In theory, it would be justifiable given they're all part of a resistance cell, but in execution, the only characters that really mattered outside the two Sonics, Tails, Avatar, Eggman, and Infinite, were debatably Knuckles as he was the Resistance Leader and Silver because it led to the Phantom Ruby Prototype being collected by the Avatar. You could drop the rest of the characters and replace them with NPCs and nothing would really change.

    In a nutshell, Sonic Team really needs better writers who know when to use characters appropriately and when they're just in the way of the story or standing around for fanservice. It seems to me he's trying to do damage control for the brand's lore at the moment and adding the duo into that side of the franchise is just going to do more harm than good.
     
  2. ChaddyFantome

    ChaddyFantome

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    That's not a contradiction? The Chaos Emeralds weren't erased, and thus they sit in whitespace (the space left behind after space-time is erased).

    That bit about him having nothing to do with Modern Sonic... Can someone tell me who started that talking point? It seems so weird and out there to me yet so many people have adopted it despite it not being something reflected in the games or media to any capacity. It's like this massive leap in logic someone made and people seem to have ran with it. Generations itself explains to us he is Sonic's past self. Forces has them recognize him from Generations. It seems obvious to me Generations created a split timeline and that is what we are meant to take away from the whole ordeal. Where did this quite frankly weird idea that "they have nothing to do with each other and were always separate characters" start?

    [Woops. Would a mod be so nice as to merge my posts? Sorry about that.]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2021
  3. Anything erased from the timeline goes to white space. Green Hill Zone was erased. Sonic's friends were erased. The chaos emeralds were erased.
    They weren't always seperate characters, but Forces does make it explicitly clear that Classic is "from another dimension" now. The shitty Generations joke has nothing to do with it besides a cheap nod to try to convince players Sega still cares.

    I imagine the logic is the same as Sonic 06. Yes, the game did happen, but the events no longer exist on the timeline. Similarly, after gens, this particular Classic Sonic used to be from the same past as modern, but the timeline split retconned that, and now, in universe, this particular Sonic has "always" been from another dimension- like how technically now Sonic 06 "never happened".
     
  4. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    It's amazing how the lore used to be as simple as "this game happened after X game", and the most complicated thing was where Game Gear titles could sit.

    And now with the current team, we're baffled on half the continuity's existence or not. Real good job making things simple for fans...
     
  5. Zephyr

    Zephyr

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    I still fail to grasp how a different timeline doesn't qualify as another dimension.
     
  6. Pengi

    Pengi

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    That's a fan theory. There is no official explanation for the discrepancy. Sonic Team just changed it.

    In the leaked original Sonic Forces script there aren't even any references to Sonic Generations (Aaron Webber had to ask why Tails didn't remember Classic Sonic from Generations).

    Classic Sonic was originally supposed to be a one-off thing for Sonic Generations, a game celebrating the 20 year history of the series. In that context, Classic Sonic being from the past fit the anniversary theme, it was metatextual.

    With Classic Sonic having a continued presence outside of anniversary projects, Sonic Team switched to the idea of Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic being separate universes. I imagine they didn't want Classic Sonic to come across as "Kid Sonic".
     
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  7. Josh

    Josh

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    I'm beating a dead horse, but it's nothing unique to the current team. Kevin Eva was the community manager of Sega Europe in the mid-2000s, and described Sonic Team's approach to continuity like this: "[...] the canon was and is somewhat in flux all the time. As since it is, for want of better phrasing, whatever SEGA want or need it to be at the time. So it could easily change."

    That's why Knuckles started showing up without any explanation for why he wasn't guarding the Master Emerald, why Blaze was from another dimension, then from the future, why Classic Sonic was from the past, but was then from another dimension, why there were six emeralds in Sonic 1 and seven in Sonic 2, why Amy got older in SA1 when nobody else did, etc etc etc. I don't think they ever really thought about it that hard, especially not between games. The "canon" shifts to accommodate whatever game they want to make right then, and they don't feel beholden to maintain consistency with anything that came before.

    He also said this on Generations, specifically:

    I'm with Pengi. The explanation in Generations, like most of its plot, was a meta-explanation: Classic Sonic is, in the real world, the earlier design of Sonic. When they decided to keep using him, and establish him as his own distinct sub-brand, they figured they'd better come up with an explanation that wouldn't paint him as a younger Sonic in-universe.
     
  8. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    My name's Martin Member
    And the continuity discussion circle starts again...

    Well, anyway, I'll go back a bit to the apparent shift in canon for the Chaos Emeralds when the not-classic era came and stayed. We talk sometimes about the seemingly multiple sets of chaos emeralds of the classic era versus the single set from SA1 onwards, and recently a lot about their relation with time-space continuum, which leads me to throw you this question:

    Were the time stones merged with the chaos emeralds in that "unification" process?

    I mean, Chaos Emeralds don't start messing with time until Shadow came and did all that "Chaos Control", then '06 came and went a lot further, then Generations came and they were again the key to another mess with time. I know the simple answer is "Chaos Emeralds do anything the plot asks them to", but it's as abstract and shifting as the whole continuity thing... I liked when they were just a limitless life and energy source and the weirdest thing they'd do beyond that was creating a dimensional distortion to hide themselves in the special stage with the help of giant rings and starposts. That was enough abstract power, if you ask me.

    The worst thing about modern games are not their continuity issues, but their genericness where everything is a wildcard without enough idantity to stay consistent even with their core definition.
     
  9. BadBehavior

    BadBehavior

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    Meh, I'd still prefer Generations being canon over Forces. Unless Rangers confirms that Infinite is real, I'm just gonna assume the whole game with it's "different dimension classic sonic" and "illusory Zavok" was some kind of bad dream from eating too many Chili Dogs.
     
  10. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    I'm opting to assume Robotnik has everyone on South Island under an illusion, hence their 'world' is under his control, but otherwise the game happened on a far smaller scale than implied.

    Also, alternate dimension means from the past in the game. No timeline splits needed.
     
  11. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    It might've made for a better plot for Forces.
    Instead of almost having really achieved world conquest, Eggman could've used the Phantom Ruby to trap the relevant cast in an intricate illusion as a way to break them psychologically. It'd make for better plot twists and so.
    But, oh right, it's current SEGA and Sonic Team we're talking about. Such interesting stories are way beyond them, kids nowadays may not like them.
     
  12. Pengi

    Pengi

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    The game’s entire aesthetic was built around the war theme and Eggman having won. It would have come across as a big cop-out if it was all revealed to be fake. Sonic Forces’ story had issues from top to bottom, but taking the “it was all a dream” approach wouldn’t have made it good.
     
  13. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    My name's Martin Member
    But it would have been smart on their part to trap the heroes in this "matrix" while he conquers the real world. The failure on that POV is getting them trapped would already have been a victory on doc's side, and I find hard to believe they allowed Eggman to beat Sonic once to get him trapped in jail, so going even further with these mind games is not something I'm expecting from them in a kid's game. But I think it would have been great if Sonic was first jailed, then trapped into an illusion to keep him under control with Infinite as his jailer using the phantom ruby against him. Infinite's plot would probably had been better if his role was having to trap again the runaway hero under his charge.
     
  14. Josh

    Josh

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    Hey, I remember that issue!

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    My name's Martin Member
    So it didn't happen because Archie did first and Pen Kenders* would complain, ok. :V

    *Both patents pending, my joke and his something because Lara-Su or whatever.
     
  16. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    In my headcanon Shadow got trapped in the Null Space during those 6 months of world domination right after Rouge warned him about Eggman attacking Sonic in his DLC. That's why he was absent in those 6 months and that's why Rouge didn't tell anyone that the Infinite's Shadow was not the real Shadow, because she herself didn't know that. And Shadow only got out of the Null Space when Classic Sonic arrived from Mania because that caused a distortion in time-space and made the exit appear to him.
     
  17. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    So Ian was asked about Rocket Metal, that robot that appears in Sonic the Fighters. He said he remembers reading somewhere that Rocket Metal was actually a Tails robot, discovering the Death Egg II and reporting back. But he warned to take this data carefully because he could be wrong and have read fan stuff without realizing it.

    I remember reading that Espio was who discovered the Death Egg II.

    Does anyone know anything about this robot?
     
  18. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Considering Rocket Metal Sonic goes toward the Death Egg II, rather than away as one would expect for something locating and reporting, and the thing has a little Robotnik logo on it's tailfin in rocket form, I'd say that was some fanon he's read.

    EDIT: Also, Mecha Sonic Model No. 29.

    So there's 29 Mecha Sonic variants.

    Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Game Gear), Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive) and Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles can consist of three, then we have a missing amount between it and Sonic the Fighters.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2021
  19. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    There's that one in Sonic Adventure that people say it is Sonic 2's or 3K's Mecha Sonic.
     
  20. Blue Spikeball

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    I've read the very same thing in fan stuff in the past. I'm think it's indeed fanon.

    Isn't Rocket Metal just one of Metal Sonic's transformations, like Neo Metal Sonic? During one of Metal Sonic's special moves he transforms into Rocket Metal's torpedo form. Not to mention Rocket Metal's design shares many identical features with Metal Sonic, and there is his name.

    Anyway, the fact he's designated like that makes me wonder if Metal Sonic is actually a Mecha Sonic variant himself...

    That would explain why there seem to be two robot Sonics, Mecha and Metal. They're actually all part of the same line, Metal Sonic was just the most successful model.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2021