The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

Where do you stand on the split timeline?

  1. Makes sense

    26 vote(s)
    21.0%
  2. I hate it

    42 vote(s)
    33.9%
  3. It's alternate dimensions, not split timelines

    17 vote(s)
    13.7%
  4. Doesn't matter either way

    39 vote(s)
    31.5%
  1. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Random continuity-based thought, but I always place Sonic Generations' Classic side of things before Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles simply because I enjoy the idea of the Mecha Sonic of that game being based on Sonic's future self, with the idea lingering in Robotnik's brain. I even did a 'concept' for a project I was working on detailing the idea (warning, bad doodle behind the spoiler):

    [​IMG]
     
  2. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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  3. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Green Eyes Blue Lids, it was when I was trying to figure out how to categorise the different design for the Modern incarnation, since Adventure was a 'transition' design mostly.
     
  4. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    Eggman's lines in SegaSonic sound like he's already familiar with Sonic, referring to him by his name and saying things like "I'll get you this time, Sonic!"
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
  5. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Sonic and Robotnik had met several times prior to the first game, the idea is that SEGASonic the Hedgehog is one of those later times.
     
  6. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    The post I was replying to seemed to be suggesting that SegaSonic was their first meeting, with Eggman casually capturing Sonic and starting their antagonism.
     
  7. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Ah, you are correct, my apologies, I misread that for a different post.
     
  8. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    Their first meeting was when Sonic was working as a cop and Eggman was trying to fuck up the traffic.
     
  9. Prototype

    Prototype

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    Well that kind of puts a hole in my theory then. Presumably then, they had an earlier encounter than SegaSonic. Maybe...SegaSonic Bros? Sonic had siblings and a band prior to "growing up" and forging his own path?

    Or maybe I'm just overthinking the life story of a Japanese arcade toy-selling catalyst?
     
  10. As much as I like having SegaSonic as the first entry in the games' chronology, it falls in the same boat as Sonic 1 in being unable to actually be Eggman's first encounter with Sonic. So like, I still put SegaSonic before 1, but by nature of Sonic and co already being captured at the start of the game there has to have been yet another prior encounter. I don't hate the notion of that meeting taking place with SegaSonic Bros, but does that even have any semblance of a story?
     
  11. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    We're on a path for fitting a never released game into the canon just because it has Sonic in it. I'm in!
     
  12. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    So in my timeline I have two sources of fork: Time travel and the appearance of the Phantom Ruby. Both are "canon".

    Time travel is the easiest. In general, there is some future, then Silver someone travels back to the present and changes things, and then there is a new future (example: Sonic Rivals 2). And we have Generations, which is the opposite: Sonic, Tails and Eggman from the past traveled into the future and then returned, which created a parallel timeline ("classic dimension"). Not going into details about what Sega thinks of Classic Sonic right now.

    The Phantom Ruby is trickier. There is some future, but suddenly the Phantom Ruby appears in the present coming from god knows where, and changes what was supposed to happen. Sonic Forces is exactly this. Silver's future was good (according to himself in Colors DS), but the Phantom Ruby screw things over and his future became bad. I carried this concept on to the Classic Era, because why not? If the Phantom Ruby branches the timeline in the modern continuity, it should do the same in the classic one.

    My question is: is there any other event in Sonic's history that could potentially create a fork in the timeline?
     
  13. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

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    Sonic CD :eng99:


    I wouldn't personally put stock in the idea that the Ruby created yet another branch in the timeline per say. Yes, Silver's Future changes because of its appearance, but it's extra-dimensional in origin which means it would have a different effect on that timeline.

    Just to break this down a little:

    1. For the timeline split you're proposing for Generations (which I fully support), it only exists because knowledge of future events led that version of Eggman to try out things that would never normally occur to him as to avoid the future he saw where he failed over and over. With that timeline splitting off and forming it's own alternate dimension, it can be considered a separate world in terms of the multiverse; it's own distinct destination different from the Modern timeline/dimension/world. The split itself happens due to the resulting paradox within the timeline (a closed system), and the only way to reconcile that is for that series of events to be separated from what had already happened and to form its own dimension.
    2. We know that the Phantom Ruby arrived via "a sudden dimensional breach in the atmosphere" meaning it came from a dimension foreign to either the Modern or Classic dimensions and so happened to land only in that distinct dimension. This explains why a version of the Ruby doesn't exist on Modern Sonic's World at the same point in time; it's a truly original event to that dimension.
    3. Following the events of Sonic Mania, the Ruby somehow interacts with the Chaos Emeralds to produce yet another dimensional breach that pulled both itself and Classic Sonic into the Modern Dimension. The Ruby arrives first where Eggman finds it in the prequel comic and begins reverse engineering it with his own Virtual Reality-based prototypes.
    4. Since that Ruby appeared from outside either dimension, it was not bound to their timelines until the point of contact. As a result, it affected events across all of time for each dimension it landed in. The simplest way to put that would be to say that the Ruby is a foreign element to each dimension's timelines and that its introduction into those closed systems of cause and effect disrupted things. For the Classic Dimension, Mania suddenly happened where it didn't in the Modern Dimension, and Forces happened in the Modern Dimension when it wasn't originally meant to. The end result of its non-linear ripple effect on the Modern timeline resulted in a ruined future for Silver (which he seems to be immune to since he's a time traveler I guess). As a result, no split would occur since the changes would wash over that timeline.
    I hope that reasoning makes sense, I can understand how confusing it might be. TLDR; The Generations split happens because of time travel within the same timeline, while the changed future in Forces is due to a foreign contaminant from another dimension entirely.
     
  14. I've been thinking about this stuff. I've got two questions for you:

    #1, where did you have chronicles placed again? I'm not sure, but I have some loose theories on somewhere it might actually fit I'd like to ask you about...

    #2, there must be a second phantom ruby split after forces and mania, which imo, results in IDW. Think about it. IDW shares an identical continuity to the games until just after forces ends. Mania adventures and Mania plus are both confirmed to take place after forces, yet they both can't be canon... can they?

    My theory is that once Sonic defeated the death egg parasite and classic sonic went home, the supposed temporal distortions from the phantom ruby did something to cause another split on both ends. The phantom ruby vanishes for good in both modern sonic timelines, but in the classic universe, it's apparently playing schrodinger's cat- both seemingly destroyed and returned home at the same time. We know the phantom ruby hails from angel island in the classic dimension (as is the current offical statement iirc) and that the classic and modern dimensional barriers can be breached, so I see it like this:

    >Phantom ruby is returned to the classic dimension post forces > current game canon- Mania Plus happens

    >Phantom ruby is destroyed post forces > extended media canon- mania adventures and idw takes place

    We'd have to use a little imagination to figure out how that little blip kicks idw off, but right now I think the only hole in my theory is just that we still dont know exactly what the true phantom ruby even is. When I played forces and mania I was under the impression that:

    >the real ruby is the one from angel island

    >eggman took it to research it and hide it

    >began trying to recreate it, resulting in the prototypes

    >put the finalized, working prototype in infinite

    >put the real ruby in the death egg parasite

    But that all seems like it might not be correct either. Either way, I'm typing this all as I'm heading to bed, so it probably makes no sense, and I apologize.

    Edit: Damn it- Beamer posted just before I finished. Oh well :p
     
  15. Prototype

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    I would say there's a handful of pretty substantial divergence points in Sonic's timeline, at it's simplest narrative route. The games have good endings and bad endings depending on whether or not you collected the Chaos Emeralds. Sonic 1 only has 6 Emeralds and no Super Sonic, but does have a specific good ending and bad ending. That's a split right there.

    Whatever ending leads into the events of Sonic 2 (the Good Ending?), this game is the first to have 7 Emeralds and Super Sonic.

    Thematically, I like to think that Sonic 1's Bad Ending is what led into the events of Sonic CD, which mirrors that theme with Good Futures/Bad Futures. Sonic CD would be a very fragmented point timeline-wise, with many futures and the major decider of whether or not Sonic collected the Time Stones.

    To make it into a neat narrative package, we could say that in a run where Sonic collects the Time Stones, that then restores the timeline to a point after Sonic 1 which neatly runs into a new parallel version of Sonic 2 where he meets Tails.

    Repeating the timeline split of Sonic 2's Emerald/Super Sonic ending, Sonic 3 and S3&K have to lead directly from an All Emerald run, leaving this parallel Sonic 2's bad ending leading into yet a different future. I don't know what this bad ending would lead to.

    I'm not sure how to count the various differences between S3 and S3&K. Both versions would necessitate following from an All Emerald run of Sonic 2's events. Perhaps this post-2/pre-3 midpoint is where the fragmented Generations point comes in providing the nicest reason for a branched split, and this is why Sonic has now learned the Insta-Shield in the S3 timelines.

    S&K standalone is also it's own game but wouldn't need to follow from a Sonic 2 All Emerald run since there's no Super Sonic opening cutscene, and thus S&K could be this timeline's version of Sonic's very first time achieving Super Sonic form.

    Perhaps S&K comes from the Sonic CD timeline where he didn't collect the Time Stones, which would thus mean he didn't meet Tails in the parallel Sonic 2, explaining why Tails isn't choosable in S&K. Sonic CD would thus function as the second game in the timeline, replacing his adventure with Tails.

    Eye've gone Crossied.
     
  16. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    I agree with everything (well maybe not Sonic CD, and I'm still confused about the Phantom Ruby's first appearance, but whatever). And I think I didn't make myself clear. What I meant by "split" or "branch" is just a change in the future of the timeline, even if one path is immediately dead after the event. Not necessarily both paths remain alive, like Generations.

    In Rivals 2 we have a bad futute caused by Ifrit, then Silver comes back to the present and changes the future. Now we have an original future (a bad one), that is erased from existance, and a new future (a good one), that remained up to Forces. The point is, we have two different futures for the same present.
    In Forces we have a good future (post-Rivals 2), then the Phantom Ruby pops out in the present. Now we have an original future (a good one), that is erased from existance, and a new future (a bad one), that made Silver traveled back to the present to change it. Again, we have two different futures for the same present.
    In both cases, the future was changed due to some spacetimey event.

    So was there something in Sonic's history that we could argue it made some original future change to a new future?


    Sometimes I think that in the modern continuity there were Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles, while in the Mania continuity there were Sonic 3 & Knuckles combined. Just because of the Hyper Sonic.

    But I don't think the multiples endings of the games mean something to the continuity. It is assumed that the good ending is always the right one. Well one could argue that Sonic 4 implies Sonic CD's bad future is canon (I did once, not anymore), but the flow of time in Little Planet is naturally very weird.

    Now imagine if all those Shadow the Hedgehog's ending exist somewhere in the timeline, what a mess it would be. :V
     
  17. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    Initially I've placed Chronicles in the future post-Lost World that was changed due to the Phantom Ruby arrival. Thus that Silver's good future was dead not because of the Phantom Ruby, but because of the Time Eater in Generations.
    That was kinda bad, because Silver's bad future was precisely due to the Phantom Ruby. Besides, Chronicles was on a Earth-y planet with no wisps around - it doesn't fit where it was placed.
    Now I've moved it to a future post-Sonic Battle that was changed due to the massive Chaos Control at the beginning of Sonic Advance 3. It kinda fits, because of the overall Emerl theme. But I'm not sure if that Chaos Control should change the future. That is why I made the question.

    Well that could eventually work, but what if the Phantom Ruby appears again in some extended media? Besides, Ian Flynn stated the comics are non-canon to the games, so I don't think we need to fit those.


    I thought it was that too, until recently. It looks like it's the other way around. The Phantom Ruby first appeared in Forces prequel, then Eggman stated making prototypes, and then one of the prototypes traveled to Mania. Then Forces happens with world domination and such, and then Mania happens and takes Classic Sonic to Forces.
    I'm still unsure about that, it's very confusing.
     
  18. This might sound crazy but... I'm thinking chronicles might not be on a dead timeline after all. I'll still need to do some fact checking, but I'm looking to definitively place it somewhere after advance 3/06 and before riders/zero gravity...
    Then we'll accommodate, like we always do:eng99:
    And yet in the current timeline we're working with, Sonic is a popcorn vendor and Eggman's greatest achievement is running red lights. Why not have Tails be a budding musician while we're at it? :D I'm just saying that I'm here to have fun over anything else- and besides, as I stated, IDW shares an identical history to the games up until a certain point, and mania adventures and mania plus can't both be canon in the same universe. I enjoy trying to reconcile that lol.
    Who knows anymore? I still like to think the way it appears in the games (how we thought it goes) is the canon explanation cause it makes the most sense, but then again, this is a franchise that has retconned itself too many times to count. :/
     
  19. David The Lurker

    David The Lurker

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    I see you're talking about timelines

    Sonic The Timeline Once Again Edited To Include Something Of No Consequence Edit (compressed).png
     
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  20. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    Oh Jesus