The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

Where do you stand on the split timeline?

  1. Makes sense

    26 vote(s)
    21.0%
  2. I hate it

    42 vote(s)
    33.9%
  3. It's alternate dimensions, not split timelines

    17 vote(s)
    13.7%
  4. Doesn't matter either way

    39 vote(s)
    31.5%
  1. Hitlersaurus Christ

    Hitlersaurus Christ

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    That could make some bit of sense, but Blaze knows about Sonic when she’s in the future (the “a blue hedgehog...?!” line when Mephiles gives Silver his vision), which is reiterated in her Wave Ocean section. Unused voice clips confirm this as well.

    I guess with the final incomplete game we got you can sort of brush them aside and use your explanation as head canon but it really is a complete contradiction that Sonic Team doesn’t seem interested in fixing or even acknowledging other than “Blaze was in the future in 06, in other games she’s not.”
     
  2. Roller

    Roller

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    I'm interested in hearing the unused voice clips if you can provide a source, but I remember hearing something about her fixation on the phrase "blue hedgehog" that really puts into perspective what a bastardisation the mediocre localisation did to this game. Something about how their word for blue is either a significant chunk of or another meaning for the word for naive, a term she repeatedly uses for Silver throughout the story. I wish I could read Japanese to confirm this, but a cursory search does provide some evidence (scroll down to "greenhorn") for this statement.

    So when she's saying "A blue hedgehog... can it be true? I need to find Silver fast!", it takes on an entirely new meaning. She's not wondering whether it's Sonic, she's starting to suspect that it's Silver and that she needs to stop him from being tricked into doing Mephiles' bidding.
     
  3. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Indeed, it's wordplay. It can mean "blue hedgehog" or "naive hedgehog", but it doesn't quite work in English. Blaze clicks that something's amiss due to the word play, but since it doesn't work in English it's just "???" over here.

    It's aoi, which can also be heard here, 32:24 in:

    "You really are naive."

    Regardless, the Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) promotional material has Blaze still as Guardian of the Sol Emeralds, so she's likely there a la Sonic Rush Adventure, but the other way. She does say she has flames already in her soul, so her fire doesn't come from Iblis, and how else would she know about other dimensions, considering it's a shock to everyone she's from another dimension in Sonic Rush.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2021
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  4. Hitlersaurus Christ

    Hitlersaurus Christ

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    Yeah, so that thing about the “butchered translation” is extremely exaggerated and based on a minimal understanding of Japanese and/or the actual script. I wanted to make a whole big post about it and wasn’t sure where would be the best place for people to see it, but I guess here and now is as good a time as any. I’ll go ahead and make a big ol eye catching title too:

    DISPELLING THE MYTHS OF BLAZE IN STH2006

    There’s a narrative going around about how Blaze talking about a blue hedgehog is a mistranslation, and that nothing in the original Japanese version suggests she knows Sonic. The reason for this is that the word for blue (aoi) can also mean naive. That much is true, and it’s actually the word Blaze uses when chastising Silver. That part of the script is impossible to translate, so I certainly don’t blame the localization team for not trying. It’s a nice bit of irony that Silver spends his story searching for a blue hedgehog, yet in the end he was the blue (naive) hedgehog. It’s kind of a “No John, you are the demons” moment.

    But the thing is, the only time the translators made a mistake translating the meaning of the word is in the cutscene directly before Blaze’s Wave Ocean.

    Japanese line: 青い、ハリネズミ…
    Translation: Naive, hedgehog...
    English line: A blue hedgehog...

    This is one of only 3 times in the game that Blaze uses the words “aoi harinezumi,” and it stands out because there’s a comma in there. She’s worrying about Silver being naive. Directly after this is Blaze’s Wave Ocean level. At the beginning of the stage she has a line:

    Japanese:「イブリストリッガー」
    青いハリネズミ…本当なのか?
    急いでシルバーを探さねば
    Translation: Iblis Trigger, [a] blue hedgehog... is it really true? I need to find Silver fast
    English: The “Iblis Trigger”... A blue hedgehog... Can it be true? I need to find Silver fast!

    Seems accurate to me. Why would Blaze be saying “naive hedgehog” in this sentence? It doesn’t make sense. Her inflection doesn’t suggest it either.

    The one other time 青いハリネズミ is said is at the beginning of the story, when Mephiles shows a vision of Sonic to Silver. When Silver describes him, Blaze looks curious and says:

    Japanese: 青いハリネズミ……!?
    Translation: Blue hedgehog...!?
    English: Blue hedgehog?

    Using “naive hedgehog” would make even less sense here. The situation, her animation, the way the line is written, and how it’s said all go against that reading.

    But all of the above might as well be moot because Blaze says it herself.
    You see, each 3D Sonic game from Sonic Adventure through Shadow had idle quotes, little lines that the characters would say when you left them sitting there that added flavor to the game. Sonic 2006 has these as well but like a number of other gameplay elements they were never properly implemented. Check them out:

    The line in question is at about 2:47.


    So there you have it! Myth busted. Now go and spread this message to everyone in the fanbase so I never have to hear about it again!
     
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  5. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    Of course the meaning is blue hedgehog, not naive hedgehog. Mephiles was talking about Sonic, which is surprisingly blue. But Blaze saying "blue hedgehog..." doesn't imply that she knew a blue hedgehog. The only blue hedgehog she knows is Sonic and she should be quite surprise if Sonic was the Iblis trigger because he helped her before and they saved the worlds together. Maybe in the early development they thought Blaze should know Sonic (because Rush), as shown in the cut voice clip, but in the final version it doesn't look like she does.


    Maybe this was an attempt to retcon her back then, but Blaze is not born in the future. She is from the Sol Dimension. It's much more likely that she went from the Sol Dimension to the future, by the influence of the Sol Emeralds, than the other way around. Like it happened in Colors DS.

    Do you have this material to share, please?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 2, 2021
  6. Hitlersaurus Christ

    Hitlersaurus Christ

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    Yes, she would be quite shocked, which is why she says “blue hedgehog...?!” (emphasis on the !? part) and later “a blue hedgehog... could it be true?”
    I’m really not sure how that doesn’t seem like she’s worried it might be Sonic unless you’re actively looking for reasons to believe something else.

    There’s been nothing officially said on the subject so either of your interpretations are equally valid. All of her official information (including the leaked Sonic 2006 script document) only mention her being from another world, but in 06 she’s in the future without the Sol Emeralds that are crucial to her characters, has clearly known Silver for quite some time, and gets sealed in another dimension at the end. I’d personally lean towards her being from another dimension and 06 just not being canon, but again, we can only judge from what they’ve said (nothing) and what they intended (Blaze’s world was going to be retconned as the future)
    It was definitely on the official site back in 2006 but I doubt anyone backed it up. For what it’s worth it’s also in the leaked game script excel sheet which I think you can find somewhere on Retro with a little searching
     
  7. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    [​IMG]

    I'm looking for the actual images, but they have been documented by the lore enthusiasts.

     
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  8. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Sorry it took so long, was getting them translated.

    [​IMG]
    Blaze the Cat
    She controls and protects the "Sol Emerald" (an item that acts as the opposite of the Chaos Emeralds). She normally is calm and collected, but she actually is passionate deep inside. She's strict with herself, and behave shy when interacting with others, but she considers Silver, with whom she tags, a pal and a little brother

    [​IMG]
    Blaze the Cat
    Blaze, a partner who fights along Silver in a broken down future! Blaze's main trait is controlling flames, such as the "Spinning Claw" where she's wrapped in flames and spins to attack or the "Fire Claw" where she uses flaming nails to attack, among other abilities. She can appeal as cool at a first glance, but she does care for her pals

    [​IMG]
    Amigo Character
    Blaze the Cat
    The protector of the Sol Emerald. She can appear as cool at a first glance, but she's actually very passionate deep inside. She will team up with Silver

    Actions:
    Accel Tornado:
    Press X during jumping
    If you press X again during a jump, she will jump higher

    Fire Claw:
    Square Button
    Press the Square Button to attack with flaming claws

    Spinning Claw:
    Keep Square Button pressed and then let go of it
    If you keep the Square Button pressed and then let go of it, she will spin like a top and attack
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2021
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  9. Wasn't it said that during 06's development it was supposed to be connected to Rush in some way?
     
  10. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    So the Sonic Channel Wallpaper Cover Stories confirmed that the ARK can be visible from the Earth as a second moon at times.

    So there's the second moon in Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity and Sonic Advance 3 answered.
     
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  11. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    Funny thing the Space Colony Ark looks white from down here.

    Where is this Sonic Channel Wallpaper Cover Stories, please?
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2021
  12. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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  13. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    So Sonic Advance 3 is (or must be) on Earth. Which kinda makes sense since Sonic Battle is on Earth as well iirc.
     
  14. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    All the games pre-Sonic Colours were on Earth. There's never been a hint to another planet before Sonic Colours suddenly shoehorned the idea in. Sonic Riders has maps of Earth, Shadow the Hedgehog shows the North American continent, etc.

    Really, the only game you could suggest is not Earth would be Sonic the Hedgehog (Mega Drive), and only because it doesn't have a connection linking it to Earth directly, like the others (Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive), Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles and Sonic the Hedgehog CD all linked via Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure links to Sonic Adventure 2, etc.)
     
  15. Beamer the Meep

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    For the sake of argument, if the two-world thing is true, then Rush would also be directly set on Earth as well since Cream's house is there on the world map.
     
  16. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    Sonic Heroes is not on Earth, because Forces mentioned Seaside Hill.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2021
  17. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    Well, unless we consider that the two planets were merged together before Colors, thus every game was on Earth and on Sonic's planet at the same time because both planets were one and the same. And then they split up after Unleashed.
    That could make some sense, I guess?
     
  18. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    I meant before Iizuka decided to fubar the canon.

    Before Sonic Colours, everything was on Earth. After, Iizuka tap danced over continuity's corpse while someone declared there were two worlds now, and tried to shift blame onto Yuji Naka.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Central City News Today, the same Central City featured in Sonic Battle (Earth), Shadow the Hedgehog (Earth) and implicitly Sonic Adventure 2 (also Earth). Implying Sonic Heroes is also on Earth.
     
  19. shilz

    shilz

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    This is a similar question to one I see a whole lot and one that kind of answers itself. "Why doesn't Mephiles just travel to a specific point and do the deed?" Well, he does, but first he would have to set up all the dominos to make the effect work.
    The theoretical timeline of Mephiles: Be released from the original Scepter, get revenge on or tempt Shadow for getting sealed by him in the first place, turn crystal-y when he doesn't cooperate, play around some more until he gets the emeralds and defeated (?)
    At some other point Silver's Mephiles (Shadow and Silver's mephileseses are both at different points in his history, you can tell by the color of his inhibitor rings when detransformed) decides to kill Sonic to get to Elise, and is like "Hey Silver. Go kill this blue guy for me" to throw another hurdle in Sonic and Elise's way, causing them to develop a stronger connection, while further tempting Silver with his perfect future, before then going to the point where Sonic and Elise have litterally survived the unsurvivable and then just blasting Sonic in the chest out of nowhere.

    TL;DR, turns out Time Travel from the perspective of people who aren't time traveling with another person on-screen makes it seem like time has a normal flow for them. Mephiles is playing everyone, including the audience, for fools.

    I don't think I'm exact on *all* of the details and I feel like someone else has made more sense of the two Mephiles thing, but I assume all appearances in Shadow's story are first and all in Silver's are second. My only snag is the "Shadow kicks his ass" part, but it's possibly another additional time travel point.

    This is still something I have a hard time believing in. It makes no sense to me for Blaze to have EITHER forgotten Sonic altogether after the events of 06 OR have met him before 06 and accidentally time traveled to Silver's future through supposed accidental time-space shenanigans, as suggested by other posts. (What was she shifting dimensions for if she her to end up in Silver's future?).

    I did think about it a little more, though, and I guess Blaze being a princess can make sense as long as she ran away from being one in her dimension (Therefore, not from the future, and why she has knowledge of the other dimension thing) and as long as she was still somehow effected by the flame extinguish in order to have it wiped from her memory. The future cannot be her origin point like people continue to market.

    Still doesn't handle my biggest gripe, why does she have to be "sealed" in another dimension if she's gonna hold Iblis just fine anyways? It makes no sense for Silver to have to sacrifice her and is played up for a whole lot more drama than necessary if she can just go home and return to normal or whatever.
     
  20. Forte

    Forte

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    In my headcanon, it's Earth and it's populated by both humans and mobians. I mean, the two worlds doesn't make any sense, and Sonic's world doesn't make either. Iizuka was probably influenced by Sonic X or something, when he said that.

    To be honest, I liked Archie's (os SatAM) explanation, that Mobius is Earth, but in future. That way both races lived on the planet. Not everything from West canon was bad.