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The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. Josh

    Josh

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    BlackHole, you keep saying that all the other universes I'm citing were mere adaptations with no impact on the games' storyline, but remember, the East and West had different storylines for the games, too. And Mobius was particularly unifying. Until Sonic Adventure, there was nothing in English canon that contradicted the idea that Sonic and friends lived on a world called Mobius. It was consistent across nearly all the various adaptations, as well as the instruction manuals for games like Sonic CD and Triple Trouble.

    One of the biggest differences between the Mario Supershow and Sonic's adaptations was THE INTERNET, its widespread adoption and effect on the fandom. Thanks to the internet, SatAM was almost synonymous with being a Sonic fan in the 90s. It was almost the only thing anybody talked about. Even the games were often analyzed through that lens. While people were aware of the overseas "SegaSonic" canon (so weird, we thought, how they call Robotnik "Eggman" over there!), just about everything in the fandom revolved around SatAM back then. The Freedom Fighters, the planet Mobius, Roboticizers and coups and Uncle Chuck... Princess Sally was, no joke, probably the most popular character among fans for years and years.

    And even though I was always a fan of the games first and foremost, you might be able to imagine why it was QUITE a fracture point when the Adventure games established a worldwide canon, and those elements, locations, and characters that fans collectively saw as so integral to Sonic not only went away, they started to be forgotten by younger fans.

    I'm not arguing this to try to convince anyone. In fact, I absolutely AGREE that as of Sonic Adventure, Sonic Team obviously intended it as a direct follow-up on what had always been their canon. (Also, the fact that SA references Little Planet and Angel Island like that is really cool!)

    I'm just providing explanation for why a lot of English-speaking fans at the time might not have have seen it that way. The new character designs, the sudden inclusion of humans, the absence of Mobius, giving the main villain a goofy "new" name... because it adhered exclusively to Japanese game canon, Sonic Adventure was a distinct break from how Sonic had always been presented in the west, across games, marketing, and adaptations.

    EDIT:
    YMMV, but I think it's safe to say most of this group liked Colors just fine, too. Which means that out of the five big 3D Sonic titles released since that thread, three of them were well-liked by this group, and the other two were... quite below-average, but not actively OFFENSIVE like some of the games of the 2000s were. However...

    The problem is, the two games (Lost World and Forces) that we collectively agreed WEREN'T so good were the two most recent, and they came out three and SEVEN(!!!) years ago, respectively. It's taken a LONG time for things to get back to this point. But from 2010-2013, especially, there was a great feeling of optimism, and we regularly patted Sonic Team on the back for finally "breaking the Sonic cycle."

    I think the fandom's on-edge right now specifically BECAUSE of the total lack of news on the 30th anniversary game. Adventure fans most of all, because they (I think correctly) perceive Forces' failure as this golden opportunity when they might be able to get some version of the Sonic they grew up with back. They haven't gotten their way much in the past 10 years, and if it doesn't happen now, it probably never will.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
  2. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Indeed, the canon kind of got messy with localisation. It's why I generally look to the country of origin's version of the games for reference when discussing lore, as localisation can and will mess up the story.

    So basically, to me, the Japanese story is the lore and the version I'll look to regarding it.

    I'll still call Dr. Eggman "Dr. Robotnik" though, since while he's still called Doctor Eggman, Sonic Adventure 2 established Professor Gerald Robotnik instead of Professor Gerald Eggman, thus the family name is Robotnik, and personal preference (Dr. Eggman is not an intimidating name), but push comes to shove I know his official name is and always will be Dr. Eggman.
     
  3. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

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    I actually never understood why the writers barely reference the Robotnik name anymore (I think the last game to do so was Generations, and even then that was just a simple throwaway line). I think it'd be actually a bit of a funny running gag to have Eggman try and refer to himself as "Robotnik" before Sonic immediately shows up and calls him Eggman. Take the Sonic '06 opening for instance, which I think would have been a perfect instance for this:
     
  4. BlackHole

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    Probably because that would require making his original name a joke, and that might come off as an insult to the person who came up with the name.
     
  5. Sid Starkiller

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    I doubt Sega cares about something like that, but either way, I could quickly see a joke like that veering into "...OK, I get it..." territory, and that's never something you want your jokes to do.
     
  6. MastaSys

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    If you want Robotnik to be used again. Don't push Eggman as an insult, don't.

    It never made sense, For Japan, Eggman it's the name the creators gave the character.
    The other one was from the minds that always eager to take credit for their success and push blame to Japan for any unpleasent failure that Sega have done. When the credit's from both parties, both high and low moments.

    In lore, the character likes the name. He used his name in his ships, both Sonic 2 and Sonic Adventure, where they tried this angle.

    Even in the Movie, Robotnik doesn't like many things, but beeing called Eggman is not one of those.

    If you want the name to be used, i suggest beeing used on "Official"/"Human" matters (GUN documents/meetings/operation, Eggman's companies.) Or when Eggman is presenting himself to new characters, who doesn't know him.

    Eggman is his villain name and he loves it. And more resistance to this mindset is made, the less likely SOJ will be open minded on this matter.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
  7. BlackHole

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    Personally, I headcanon that he uses it as an initialisation.

    Extraordinarily Gifted Gentleman.

    Hence the usage of EGG on most of his stuff.
     
  8. DigitalDuck

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    The reason Classic Sonic appears the way he does in Generations and Forces, and not as an exact copy of Modern Sonic, is part fanservice and part so we can tell which is which.

    You don't need to rationalise it as "that's how he looked in the past" or "that's how he looks in another dimension" or anything like that. Characters in the games (at least Generations) cannot immediately tell that Classic Sonic isn't "their" Sonic, because to them they look the same. They look different to us for storytelling and gameplay purposes.
     
  9. BlackHole

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    You mean beyond things like:

    Amy: "Thanks Sonic! Hey, you seem to look younger! What happened?"
    (Oh hey, a basis for Classic Sonic being the younger version)
    Knuckles: "Thanks Sonic! You saved me. By the way, did you get a little chubby there?"

    Something else to note from the Japanese version of Sonic Generations: Tails only says they're travelling through time, not time and space, and otherwise the characters refer to themselves as the same person, instead of two versions thereof: "our friends". The classic cast are the younger versions of the characters.

    Oh, also the Robotniks referring to themselves as from the past and future, respectively.



    The Japanese version, for those that wish to check.
     
  10. Overlord

    Overlord

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    Exactly this, with a slight modification - Knuckles mentions how Sonic looks like he's put on a little weight and him being physically a little smaller is also reasonable for a past-self.

    EDIT: Blah, didn't see BlackHole's post. Yes, what he said =P
     
  11. BlackHole

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    Hey, when you've got an entire game literally saying one of them is the younger version of the other, I think that's a fair reason to go with the idea that, well, one of them is the younger version of the other.

    Hence my preference to retcon Classic Sonic to 11 and have his age climb up to 15 for Sonic Adventure and take it from there.

    At the very least, there's a year pass between two of Sonic's games, so we know he's got to have aged a year from his classic depiction to his green-eyed depiction.
     
  12. RDNexus

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    Where's mention of a year gap in Sonic games? Sonic4's reference to Little Planet?
    I don't deem Sonic4 part of the continuity. To me, it adds nothing between S3K & SA1.
    If there are any other references to time skip, I hope those justify it better...

    My opinion of things, like the continuity, may be way different from many people here.
    But I simply can't accept certain theories people state here, so I try to bring up mine.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
  13. Dek Rollins

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    I hate the idea of retconning classic Sonic to a younger age. It makes no sense. Sonic was always envisioned as a sassy teenager. He's 15~16 years old according to Sonic Jam. If a time skip is going to be retconned in to "explain" the design change/Generations age difference, making modern Sonic 18 or 19 makes more sense. I don't think the "plot" in Generations is worth worrying about anyway. They should just ignore that it happened in future games. They want Sonic to be an ageless 15 year old hedgehog, and I'm fine with that.
     
  14. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Sonic the Hedgehog 4's reference being the Little Planet literally appearing in the game. Sonic the Hedgehog 4 happened, if the Storybook games canonically happened, SEGA aren't going to reject it.
     
  15. DigitalDuck

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    Sure, but if they looked in-universe as they did to us, they'd be saying things like "HOLY SHIT SONIC WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU?"
     
  16. BlackHole

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    You mean like how Amy literally asks "What happened?" in the Japanese original?

    Also do remember they're coming out of a state Tails describes as "It's like if only my consciousness was left!" They're likely still rather disorientated and only latching onto the more obvious details, such as him looking younger, bit more chubby, shorter spikes as Blaze notes, etc. They're literally describing the differences one piece at a time.
     
  17. Josh

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    Let's not forget that both the military, and Sonic's OBSESSED FANGIRL couldn't see the difference between Sonic and Shadow.

    Given this consistency, it's clear that canonically, in this world (his world!), everyone has agnosia! It's kind of a miracle they noticed any differences at all in Generations.
     
  18. BlackHole

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    To be fair, I think the military were doing that deliberately. They can't exactly announce to the world they're trying to recapture a black-ops project that they ended up killing a girl over, and it's not like the world is full of supersonic Hedgehogs.

    Plus, they have three Chaos Emeralds and know full well Shadow will likely go to get them. Put them on Prison Island, put Sonic on Prison Island, and you've got a recipe for Sonic dealing with your problem for you. Lo and behold, Sonic and Shadow find each other on Prison Island and start fighting.
     
  19. Josh

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    That's A REALLY cool way of looking at it, but there's nothing in the game that supports that idea. But MAN, there should have been! It reinforces my belief that SA2 has perhaps the widest gulf in the series between a story concept and outline with a ton of potential, and a poor onscreen execution.
     
  20. BlackHole

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    Hey, the entire point of this thread is to fix continuity. There you go, I fixed some continuity in Sonic Adventure 2!