The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

Where do you stand on the split timeline?

  1. Makes sense

    19 vote(s)
    25.3%
  2. I hate it

    26 vote(s)
    34.7%
  3. It's alternate dimensions, not split timelines

    9 vote(s)
    12.0%
  4. Doesn't matter either way

    21 vote(s)
    28.0%
  1. big smile

    big smile

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    About the Game Gear games: I might be misremembering but wasn't there an interview with Iizuka over Generations 3DS, where he was asked about the Game Gear games not being represented in Generations, and Iizuka chuckled saying that he wouldn't want anything that old (thus implying they aren't a proper part of the series). Does anyone remember this? They only thing I can find is this interview where Iizuka laughs about the GG but doesn't mention them being old.
     
  2. I dunno. I've never been comfortable with the narrative that the fandom at large has adopted that Iizuka is the cause of all of the series' problems and it would improve if he wasn't around.

    One person shouldn't be held liable for what's pretty much a company wide problem.

    Iizuka says a lot nonsensical stuff, but he's literally just one person and probably just trying to make sense of all the changes and mandates keep enforcing and changing. Its really not fair to just say that he's the problem and that's it.
     
  3. Sid Starkiller

    Sid Starkiller

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    Problem with that is that while your statement of "You don't KNOW it's all Iizuka's fault!" is true...we don't know that is ISN'T, either. All of this is conjecture. He could be forced to add in a bunch of shit, or it could all be 100% Iizuka. We don't know for sure, and fact is it's easier to pin the blame on 1 person than a group.
     
  4. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    This change of direction in the series coincides with Iizuka's leadership, so... It is probably his fault indeed. Maybe not only his fault, but yeah.
     
  5. That's a logical fallacy, because there's no evidence to suggest that everything that's happened is even Iizuka's fault at all. Fact of the matter of is, unless you're privy to all of the inner workings of how the franchise is run, you're just jumping to a conclusion based on little evidence and, as you just admitted, are just looking for a scapegoat to pin all of the series` problems are regardless if it's actually warranted or not, because it's the easy thing to do.

    None of which is fair to the man himself, and completely discredits Iizuka's actual contributions to the series. In addition being the director of most of the games this fandom holds in such high regard, Mania quite literally would not exist if not for him, because he was the one who greenlit the project and supervised the team. Whitehead even admitted how helpful he was. I find it hard to believe that same man is somehow this boogeyman who is out to ruin Sonic and force it to be something it isn't.

    And it honestly disappoints me that so many fans have chosen to believe into that narrative as a way to vent their frustrations about the series, when it's completely misplaced.
     
  6. Sid Starkiller

    Sid Starkiller

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    Dude, you're not privy, either. Just like me, you have no idea what's going on behinds those doors. You seem to be assuming that because some of what he's done is good for the franchise, that he can't possibly be behind anything bad. News flash: someone can make both good AND bad decisions. But hey, if you wanna vent your frustrations on me the same way you claim people are venting on Iizuka, go right ahead.
     
  7. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

    Better than Sonic Genesis... Member
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    I have to agree with Sonic5993 here. There's been documented instances (which I believe I've already mentioned in this thread) where Izuka would try to stick to something and suddenly a game contradicts it. Now we honestly can't say for sure where the two worlds thing came from nor Classic Sonic being a seperate character. Maybe Izuka did make these decisions, maybe he didn't. The situation is probably nuanced and has many contributing factors we just aren't aware of. The point that Sonic5993 I think is trying to make is that we probably shouldn't assume Izuka is behind all of it and vilify him for it.
     
  8. RDNexus

    RDNexus

    Member
    It's understandable, and I can agree to that reasoning. Sounds more logical to see SEGA's bad business practices at fault here.
    A good example of that can be seen in practices of other game companies...
    But at the end of the day, the franchise is partially in shambles and the man at the helm isn't being capable of bringing it back up.
    It's not like I wanna deem him at fault for all that's happening, just that I'd like to see Sonic & Pals return to their former glory :(
     
  9. Exactly. None of us know anything that's happening, so it's presumptuous to assume that you do. You seem to be misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not venting anything to you, I'm trying to get you to understand that your frustration and anger about the state of the series, as justified as it is, is being directed towards the wrong person.

    This is ultimately I'm trying to say; the entire situation is fucked up and it sucks if you just wanna see the best for Sonic, but pointing fingers and throwing around blame with little evidence isn't going to solve anything either. There are much more productive ways to vent for your frustrations and anxieties than making baseless assumptions out of anger.


    And I agree, but making rants on Twitter about how much Iizuka and Aaron Webber are cancer on the series isn't going to get anyone what they want...despite what cancel culture might tell you.

    The only thing you really can do is just wait and see, and if the franchise falls on its ass again, then you just gotta keep waiting and seeing.
     
  10. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

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    I recall Ohshima once saying that Iizuka is fighting alone for Sonic.

    As far as the timeline and general poor story decisions go, it could be Iizuka, or it could be higher ups telling him what to say or even lying to him about things like Naka wanting the two worlds. Not sure how plausible the latter is considering Iizuka inherited Naka's position, but I'm thinking regardless, Iizuka is probably fighting a losing battle with management and is making some poor decisions along the way.
     
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  11. SuperSonicRider

    SuperSonicRider

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    I want to touch on the characterization aspect a bit; as BlackHole mentioned, lots of people feel like the supporting cast have become flat. I think this is because all the games from Unleashed - Lost World place focus more on Sonic and Eggman, with side characters coming up whenever they want to write them in. The fact that Knuckles does not seem to actively guard the Master Emerald anymore is a popular contention, but like...that's been the case for 3D games since and including Sonic Heroes. (I am aware there is an allusion to the Master Emerald at the end of the game, but it's still very much out of focus.) I'm not saying it's wrong to call that out, but with that specific complaint, I don't think it's fair to attribute that to Iizuka's directorship. With the rest of the supporting cast, I would say that in the few examples we are given to see them actually be characterized - those being Colors DS and Forces - they have been mostly in character. Again, it's not so much that they have been severely deteriorated, but just that they haven't really been utilized properly and/or enough(?). In Forces, for example, you can get the idea that Silver is a pretty serious character. He's one of the only supporting characters that actually clashes with Infinite. That's pretty consistent with how he was portrayed in Sonic '06 when is future is ruined. The only issue is that there isn't any background given to him. If you're unfamiliar with the games and didn't read the prequel comic, you wouldn't even know he came from the future. Colors DS even explains that much lmao. That's an issue with how Forces tells and structures the story, but he's still in-character. I think that the most noticeable changes in character direction have been for Sonic, Tails, and (to some extent) Eggman, rather than any of the other supporting cast.

    That all said, I will concede that I understand why people attribute the 2 worlds and Classic Sonic being from an alternate dimension thing to Iizuka. He has said so in interviews, and that's pretty much our main source for that information. I just disagree that these two claims have inherently led to worse games. Also, of course, it's probably not solely Iizuka's fault; he does direct the franchise but I highly doubt he comes up with absolutely every piece of lore. But I understand wanting more explicit care to be put into continuity for the main games. With regards to the classic Sonic thing for instance, earlier in the thread, I think I was trying too hard to parse why SonicTeam/Iizuka/whoever would even pose the alternate dimension thing since it could only possibly complicate things, so I was operating under the idea that they must've had a good reason for it. But at the end of the day, unless they decide to explain that further, it's more than understandable to identify it as a flaw, and it's no wonder people were so upset about the couple of "other dimension" mentions in Forces. Taking it solely at face value, it doesn't make sense! and that's totally fair. (I still maintain my idea that they probably just did that so they can continue to make Classic Sonic games that aren't bound to events in the "future", but of course that doesn't elaborate on it "canonically" & it's still not official word.)
     
  12. When it comes to characterization, the biggest complaints seem to stem from the belief that the characters are acting in ways that contradict what came before. I actually got into a debate on reddit about this when it came to a line from Shadow towards Sonic in TSR.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/SonicTheHe...hog_in_japanese_vs_english/g82p5ok/?context=3

    Many comments feel like the American localization mischaracterizes Shadow and that the Japanese localization is more accurate. When I tried to debate that, I basically got argued down about it. So yea, there does seem to be a firm belief that the character writing has deteriorated and that the cast have become parodies of themselves.
     
  13. Pengi

    Pengi

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  14. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    Probably this was just marketing, they wanted to show that Sonic 06 was very realistic and such.
     
  15. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    If I'm not mistaken, the marketing for Sonic and the Secret Rings said this was the first time Sonic was facing a genie, which wasn't true either because of Sonic Riders.
     
  16. Sid Starkiller

    Sid Starkiller

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    If I'm misunderstanding your point, it's because you seem to be saying that I personally am making these presumptions, when I'm not. The very first thing I said was that you might be right and he's not solely at fault. If you want my actual opinion, determining who's "at fault" for these decisions is a waste of time, because it doesn't fix the bad decisions.
     
  17. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    The timeline stuff is to see if I can and only because most people won't understand why I've shoved everything 2010 forward into its own continuity. I just operate under World 1 and World 2 now.

    I'm well aware, which is why it baffles me that he's coming out with half these things. He directed Sonic Adventure, literally the perfect 2D-to-3D transition for the series, he would be the one to decide what gets put in where, so I don't understand how he can tell people "oh yeah, it was always two worlds. Just ignore the continuity."

    Unfortunately, he's the one coming out with the claims. If he simply said "the decision has been made to split Sonic's World off from Earth and set future games on there," well then fair enough. I'd still hate it and consider it the dumbest decision made with the franchise, but fair enough, it's a decision out of my hands. It's his apparent claims like "this has been the case since Sonic Adventure" and "we inherited the Two World Canon from Yuji Naka" that's brought my focus onto him. The latter, especially, seems to indicate that yes, it's the Head of Sonic Team that's deciding these things.

    I don't like being lied to. He's either grossly understanding information, which is also rather worrying, or he's lying to people and throwing others under the bus for decisions people don't like. Take your pick.

    The problem with that is that if it keeps falling on it's ass, it'll eventually bruise so bad the blood clots and hits the heart, killing it stone dead.

    My worry is that the franchise is hitting a terminal state. They barely clawed their way back from Sonic the Hedgehog (2006), and Sonic Unleashed subsequently feels like it's supposed to be the big finalé (Robotnik builds Eggmanland, the dialogue in the final battle seems like Robotnik is just done with this constant conflict, etc.). Even then, it's not recovered that particularly well: why should I expect anything other than complete demise the next time a bad game hits the market?

    Basically: I'm worrying because everything is indicating to me the series will collapse soon. And I really don't want to see this series I've loved literally all my life to go out with a wimper.

    I've a bit of a personal bias, as I've expressed before the opinion that story and lore is important to note as it acts as a baseline for the rest of a game. It's the least important aspect, so is the first to suffer when the entire thing is suffering. But that's just personal thoughts on it.
     
  18. Pengi

    Pengi

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    Could be.

    But also consider that the Sonic Adventure games had whimsical otherworldly levels like Windy Valley and Pumpkin Hill, whereas Sonic 2006 and Sonic Unleashed had exclusively realistic settings.

    People have been looking at it through a lens of "When did Sonic's world become a separate thing?" and not "When did the human world become a separate thing?".

    The genie in Riders was some kind of hologram. Just like the flying carpet was technological, a precursor to Extreme Gears, rather than magical. The Babylonians were so technologically advanced that they became the stuff of myth and legends. The sequel plays the same angle, where it starts with a fairy tale about wishing on shooting stars then gives it a science/alien based explanation at the end.
     


  19. I'm gonna say this in the nicest way possible: I'm 27, I've been following this series through its ups and all of its downs, and it's still relevant to this very day. So all of the doomsaying "the franchise is doomed" is falling on deaf ears; my generation was the exact same, talking about how the franchise is doomed and will eventually die and that was roughly 10-15 years ago, and would you look at that, the franchise is still alive and well today.

    Is it doing great? Well not particularly, But its still around, not many franchises can say that (Say hi to Jak and Daxter for me). So yea, the franchise may never be what you or anyone else want it to be (because Sega seems to have realized that trying to please this fanbase is futile, and I agree...) but that honestly just comes with the territory. Sonic is a series that just kind of does whatever the hell it was regardless of how anyone feels about it, and you can argue that's pretty much exactly what it was founded on. That doesn't always work out for it, but its how they do things. And if they survived this long doing that, then obviously they're doing SOMETHING right. Because no other franchise should be able to survive the things this series has pulled and yet...it's still here. I'm not saying your feelings aren't warranted, but I'm saying that this too is gonna pass.

    So hey, get some beer, and sit down cuz we're here for the long haul with this. But no, Sonic is no danger of "dying" than it was after 2006...or 2014, or 2017. You get the idea.
     
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  20. Chaos Rush

    Chaos Rush

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    Idk, 3D Sonic seems pretty dead to me. The last decent game was Generations and that was 9 years ago. Sure, "officially" it's not dead and I'm sure there will be many more 3D Sonic games for years to come. But in terms of quality it's been dead for almost a decade now. I would be very surprised if they can pull off a Sonic game with the same production values as, say, Mario Odyssey, or even Unleashed lol.

    (If by dead you mean "officially cancelled forever" then I agree, that will probably never happen as long as SEGA exists)