Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.
I'm kinda wondering if we should close down this topic. We seem to be going in a loop here.
Sorry, but we, we, we.
The topic works for the rest of us, it's just the lead voice doesn't really want to discuss anything with the other ones. But I agree we shouldn't feed that particular loop.
Putting R, Shuffle and Dimensions in as Core Series games is very debatable. And Fighters, if I'm honest.
Not even Sonic Team themselves could make such a convoluted timeline like that, and they try very hard.
That is Sonic Team's timeline. All I've done with this chart is to document the changing manner in which they treat the brand with new lore changes. I'm not proposing that these five charts each represent a different "universe" or "timeline" per se. I'm just showing how *the* timeline has been altered as the series progresses, not just with the addition of new titles to the timeline but with retcons as well that change the way the world (theoretically) works.
They are all main console releases with the exception of the two arcade games. The games listed are less "what does Sonic Team take into account when they make games" and more "What are the big Sonic titles over the course of the series history." If you want to pull a few off that list or insert others, that's fine. The purpose of the illustration is less about one or two individual games and more about how Sonic Team has changed how the timeline looks over the years. Removing the games you suggested doesn't significantly change the way these charts look.
Ok now I understand that this was not a timeline of events but a timeline of lore directions.
And yet some things look peculiar, as Overlord mentioned. While you put Sonic Dimensions in the core series (I had to google it because I couldn't remember what game was that), games like the Rush series and the Rivals series are not included. There is even an interview in which Sonic Team states that Sonic met Silver in Sonic Rivals (since 06 was erased), so they consider this game important.
And Sonic Heroes was not on Earth, the two-worlds retcon puts Heroes in Sonic's world.
The time line is as follows:
Sonic 1 -> Sonic CD -> Sonic 2 -> Sonic 3&Knuckles -> Flickies' Island -> (non-specific time skip) -> Sonic Adventure -> Adventure 2 -> Advance -> Advance 2 -> Heroes -> Battle -> Advance 3 -> (nothing to see here) - > Rush -> Rush Adventure -> Unleashed -> Colors -> Generations -> (who cares past this point).
Or at the least, this is a timeline that isn't confusing and dumb. Also it all takes place on one planet because we're not entertaining dumb ideas made solely to satiate.
Debatable. Amy is tracking Sonic via a newspaper clipping from Central City News Today, the city central to Sonic Adventure 2 and Shadow the Hedgehog, implying she's still on Earth. The game otherwise ties itself to the events of the Adventure titles, Metal Sonic grabbing Froggy and Chocola for their connection to Chaos and Shadow for his status as The Ultimate Lifeform. The following game, Shadow the Hedgehog, continues the plot introduced in Sonic Heroes.
Really, the only thing suggesting "Sonic's World" is aesthetics.
Seaside Hill is on Sonic's planet. Forces said that.
What, there can be two Central Cities but only one Seaside Hill?
The story and character profiles in the Sonic Mania "Introduction Manual" (the one that was given away at conventions) treats the game as the next adventure following Sonic 3 & Knuckles. So before Sonic 3D and all the others.
Yeah, I don't think we need to take a LEGO Dimensions level pack into account.
As for Sonic R, when Ian Flynn was writing the "Sonic: Mega Drive" comics for Archie, Sega informed him that Sonic R was canon.
Whether it's exclusive to the Classic Sonic Universe (like SegaSonic the Hedgehog), or is something that both Sonics experienced (like Sonic CD) is up for debate.
What interview is this?
There shouldn't be two Central Cities or two Seaside Hills or two Angel Islands or two Sonics or two of anything.
Why there's two worlds and two timelines is absolutely beyond me. The former feels like a retcon attempt to satisfy western fans who thought Sonic lived on a human-less planet (which seems to originate around Sonic X), and the latter seems like a retcon attempt to speak as if classic doesn't have to be associated with modern so it can please people who shant bat a lash at ol' green eyes.
It's just.. such an insecure approach they've been taking. No confidence in their identity; just weird fragmenting done in post, even if it doesn't make a lick of sense. They're trying to satisfy everyone while satisfying no one, and the result is the most over-complicated junk I've ever seen a major game franchise try to pull off. Yes, even the Zelda timeline is more concise than this, jesus.
I know we can try to spend time understanding it, but I legitimately think it's better to put it on blast than it is to act like there's anything of value to take from it, lmao. Especially since the games themselves really don't care that much.
Careful, that kind of talk sounds very 'me, me, me'-ish.
But I fully agree with you. The Two World Scenario literally falls apart as soon as it's applied to anything pre-Sonic Colours. It just irritates me to high hell when it was claimed it's been that way since Sonic Adventure, despite the entire plot of that game revolving around the Echidna Tribe's actions causing Chaos for Earth and referencing the events of the Classic Era.
The stories from before Sonic the Hedgehog (Mega Drive) act as one Earth. Professor Gerald Robotnik was actually researching one of the Chaos Emeralds 50 years ago to develop the Chaos Drives, meaning that 4,000 years ago Echidna were on Earth with the Master and Chaos Emeralds, 50 years ago Gerald had a Chaos Emerald and was studying said Echidna's ruins to the point of creating Artificial Chaos from their history and recovering the Gizoid from one of their ruins, and the Echidna actual depict Humans in their works seen in Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles and Sonic Adventure 2.
Basically, the Two Worlds Canon only exists with Sonic the Hedgehog 4 Episode I onward. Before that, as displayed nicely by laughing_sun's good work, it was one world. To attempt to apply it to the series beforehand only results in the logic breaking down completely.
It says: "Some time after saving Angel Island," and "It's up to Sonic, Tails, & their newest ally, Knuckles the Echidna..."
So, nothing that definitively puts it right after S3K. That said, a couple things about Mania. From a "modern" perspective, it takes place directly before Sonic Forces. From the classic perspective, I think, minimum it has to take place *after* Chaotix due to the two Metal Sonic "corpses" we see during the Stardust Speedway boss fight. (One being the body from Sonic CD, the other being the body of Metal Sonic Kai from Chaotix).
It also says "Following the defeat of Dr. Eggman's previous scheme, Knuckles considers Sonic an ally."
You can look for loopholes and wiggle room, or take it at face value in the spirit it was intended.
Yeah, it's the same as Sonic the Hedgehog 3's manual, where it doesn't specify how long after Sonic the Hedgehog 2 that it takes place, only that it comes after that. Yey vague as hell manuals.
Oh, that's an interesting observation in regards to the Metal Sonic bodies. Might have to rework my Interpretation of the Classic Timeline with that knowledge...
Or I could do neither. What I'm actually doing is looking at a "contradiction" between content in some marketing materials and in the release version of the game and trying to reconcile which takes precedence over the other. To me, the content in the game itself is much more relevant than the content in a limited run book that released before the game did. Further evidence of that is the fact that none of this information carried over to the release-version manual. Which is odd, considering it was distributed digitally which means there's no reason it couldn't have had this information, but it was omitted nonetheless and new write-ups were provided instead.
So, I say the in-game content is more relevant than a collectible advertisement. Maybe you disagree. That's fine. But please don't dismiss my analysis as "wiggling" just because we arrive at different conclusions. I'd say the "face value" of showing off two defeated Metal Sonics is that one came from CD and the other came from Chaotix. You haven't offered an alternative explanation, I'll note. Regardless, my interpretation seems to be "in the spirit it was intended."
It's also important to remember that there is no "real Sonic." This is all invented. Even if Whitehead's team was 100% committed to the idea that this game is a direct follow-up to Sonic 3 & Knuckles and no other game content could possibly take place between them...who cares? Was Chaotix written with the intention that a game 22 years in the future was going to be shoe-horned between it and the title it was following up? Was any Sonic game written with the intention of leaving space for the Sonic 4s and the Sonic Manias? Mania may have been intended to be *the* follow-up to S3K. But so was Chaotix. Which takes precedence?
Let's go back to the chart for just a minute.
Sonic Mania was released before Forces. Forces creates the retcon that Classic and Modern are separate dimensions. Does that mean that just prior to Forces releasing, that the "Classic Sonic" from Mania is actually the "Classic Sonic" from Generations and previous continuity that is the "past version" of Modern Sonic? All until Forces is released a few months later and suddenly now he's an AU version?
Half the reason I created that chart was to illustrate how the canon changes over time with retcons and how there is no definitive timeline for Sonic up to this point in history. The timeline of Sonic is only as important as the next game takes it.
All of this is to say that Sonic Mania might look like a classic Sonic game. And it might play like a classic Sonic game. But it's not a classic Sonic game. It's a modern, officially licensed anniversary celebration fan-game in the tradition of the classic games, designed to promote the modern follow-up title. So when you are looking at the timeline as a whole, you have to keep that in mind. No game prior to Mania was written for Mania to have taken place. Mania is the retcon. Mania is the one being shoe-horned into continuity that was not written for it in mind.
There is a lot to consider when placing Mania in the timeline, particularly when it references so many classic games and moments: something it is only able to do as a game that was released in 2017 and not 1995. I'll be honest, I debate if Mania is even "canon" to start with (depending on how one chooses to define the term).
With no followup game other than Forces, we can only conjecture how Mania will be treated by Sonic Team in the context of a classic game. Perhaps 2021 will shed some more light on that.
I couldn't find it, sorry. Could it be Mandela Effect?
I'm getting old.
This is not confirmed at all. Knuckles Chaotix states that Eggman retrieved Metal Sonic's CPU because his body was destroyed. So even if Mania took place after Chaotix, that body on the wall should not be the same.
Don't remember claiming it was confirmed.
I'm not sure I follow your logic either. Metal Sonic's body in Sonic CD was 'destroyed' not disintegrated. Not atomized. Not melted into goo. We saw what happened. He was defeated, his body was in-tact, but destroyed, and he falls off screen. At some point Dr. Eggman retrieves his CPU and his engine and then rebuilds a new Metal Sonic body. Why does that prevent the scraps from his previous body being repaired and put on display for the Sonic Mania Stardust Speedway fight exactly? I don't see how one follows the other.
In fact, if your implication is that it's not the body from Sonic CD, that actually makes it even sillier for Chaotix to take place after Mania. Because that means that Eggman built THREE Metal Sonics in between Sonic CD and Chaotix. The two in the tube and the one you fight, none of which, presumably are Metal Sonic Kai from Chaotix. So what are these three Metal Sonics? Why did Eggman build two more as decorations that have no significance whatsoever because they aren't the Sonic CD and Chaotix versions that were previously defeated?
You don't have me sold I'm afraid.
Separate names with a comma.