The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

Where do you stand on the split timeline?

  1. Makes sense

    19 vote(s)
    28.8%
  2. I hate it

    22 vote(s)
    33.3%
  3. It's alternate dimensions, not split timelines

    8 vote(s)
    12.1%
  4. Doesn't matter either way

    17 vote(s)
    25.8%
  1. laughing_sun

    laughing_sun

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    The same reason they call between 5 and 7 non-green gemstones "Emeralds" I imagine? Sometimes these things happen.

    But this is also a very good point. The Super Emeralds would have required a redesign of the shrine if only due to their size. The Master Emerald could have been a late-game addition as well. I think you've made your case.
     
  2. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

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    That is rather interesting now that you mention it. Based on what's seen in game and in the manual, I would say that the passages to the Special Stages, the Warp Rings, were "sealed" as it were. Could it be possible that these checkpoints were built as a means of returning to the special stages? We don't know for sure who built them, but I doubt it was Eggman since we see checkpoints with warp entrances in Sonic 3 as well, just not to places where the Chaos Emeralds are. They're also very similar in design to the timewarp plates on Little Planet, so maybe there's a connection there? If it was Eggman though, it'd fit neatly into my theory of him working on accessing the Special Stages on his own from 3, Chaotix, and 3D Blast.

    I'm inclined to agree here. It seems very clear here that the game wants you to think that these are the same emeralds that Sonic had at the end of Sonic 2 (No I'm not saying they take place directly after each other, the manual clearly states they don't). There seems to be a conflict between what the manual says and what the game actually shows. In this case, I'd likely take what the game shows over the manual, which gets retconned by Sonic & Knuckles anyways.
     
  3. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

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    ???
     
  4. Linkabel

    Linkabel

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    I think he means that the manual mentions that there's several days between the two games.

    And it doesn't go like how a lot of people think it does with Sonic blowing up the Death Egg in S2 and then immediately flying to Angel Island.
     
  5. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    At minimum, with an ambiguous time period before the Death Egg "was just starting to crash towards the earth" that could be anywhere from immediately to a couple of months after.
     
  6. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

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    I misinterpreted it as referencing a longer period of time passing between the two games, as was the topic of a past discussion. But yeah, Sonic and Tails go to Angel Island several days after destroying the Death Egg.
     
  7. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

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    So we have these "options":

    1) Master Emerald as a figurative pillar of the Chaos Emeralds since the beginning (The Master controls the seven Chaos, Tikal said).
    2) Master Emerald was always there in some form, but it was supposed to be more like a column or cylinder rather than standard diamond form (stuff in Quartz Quadrant's background comes to mind).
    3) "Pillar" being a random thing used by the team to hide the fact a Master Emerald would apeear later and fill its gap.
    4) Team retconned their words of half a year before after some redesign.

    The real question is: is there any difference? No matter how literal the pillar was or how real was the Master Emerald was in Sonic 3, it has the very same function and leads to the very same result: one fucking big energy source detected, one that raises a whole island into the sky and could do the same and more for the Death Egg; also, an epic showdown between transformed Sonic and the final boss of choice in the space. Graphics could have been different, but plot is almost intact.

    Oh, and, you know, if you detect a huge Emerald power signal, you notice a signal, and guess Emeralds are involved, but you don't see the size and amount of them until you see them, so I don't think there's ambiguity in that expression. It could have been some ancient machine with a lot of Chaos energy stored in it and it would still send a huge emerald power signal.
     
  8. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    I think the intention was to determine if the Master Emerald was conceptualised from the start of Sonic the Hedgehog 3 or if it was retconned in later. In either case, I think the concept was there, but the intended execution was different. Rather than a pillar or long crystal like, say, Crash Bandicoot's crystals, it became the gem we know during that six month gap.

    [​IMG]

    (Incidentally, has anyone noticed how Crash Bandicoot 2: Cortex Strikes Back and Crash Bandicoot 3: Warped link up kind of like Sonic the Hedgehog 2 and Sonic the Hedgehog 3 do? Space Station destroyed in the ending of the second game crashes down on an ancient realm, resulting in the mad scientist gaining a new ally. Just a neat minor note.)

    Does anyone know of any concept art of the Master Emerald before Sonic the Hedgehog 3's release?

    I'm still interested in that gently floating portion, since the same section uses wording that implies the Death Egg coming down was after he regained consciousness.

    I'm also curious as to if the cases of the Chaos Emeralds humming and then emitting a bright flash (Sonic the Hedgehog (MD)'s All Chaos Emeralds Ending and Sonic the Hedgehog 3's Knuckles Profile) is what inspired Chaos Control later in Sonic Adventure 2.
     
  9. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

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    I suppose it's possible, but there's a very clear intention in Sonic 1 to show that the Emeralds power up life energy around them and will scatter to places unknown after their use. While there's nothing to say clearly if this inspired chaos control, we do know from the manuals for Sonic Adventure 2 that Gerald was researching this life-enhancing power in order to cure NIDS. Out of that research he developed the chaos drives, artificial chaos (such terrifying implications with them...), and the Eclipse Canon alongside Project: Shadow.
     
  10. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    To be fair, the Eclipse Cannon was developed to blow up the Black Comet.

    Actually, speaking of retconned ideas, what was the original intent of the Eclipse Cannon in Sonic Adventure 2, before aliens?
     
  11. Starduster

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    Pretty sure it was originally just meant for revenge against Earth after Gerald snapped, but I do feel that the apparent retcon to have it be a counter measure to the Black Comet makes things a little more believable given the timeframe it’d take to construct such a weapon.

    On another note, I’ve seen games such as Triple Trouble and Sonic the Fighters brought up in the thread, with questions regarding their story details conflicting with the Genesis games and other codified elements of the series. While I’m not out to stop anyone headcanoning as to what’s going on with them, I think that when debating about the continuity of the games in a more objective sense, it’s important to remember and acknowledge that such games were ultimately made by other developers and lie outside the original games and vision Sonic Team crafted. As such, I feel that any story that significantly integrates plot points that contradict Sonic Team’s own games could not have occurred in the exact manner in which said stories were initially presented.

    That is to say that these games can still have happened, but imo should be adapted to fit around the core titles rather than the other way around. That would likely save many unnecessary headaches when trying to settle on a consensus for such games’ placement in the continuity.
     
  12. BlackHole

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    Wasn't he immediately removed from the ARK? His revenge plot started after Maria was shot and killed, by which point he'd been arrested. I don't think G.U.N. would have missed him constructing a huge plasma cannon while arresting everyone.
    That's fair, though I'd still say Sonic Triple Trouble happens between the Death Egg crash and Sonic the Hedgehog 3 proper. Thank you vague as hell Sonic the Hedgehog 3 manual!
     
  13. laughing_sun

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    This is true. However, he also was somehow able to program fake memories into Shadow along with his own desire for revenge, and, along with that, somehow was able to program the BioLizard and the ARK computer to crash the ARK into the Earth. And he was able to upload film of his OWN EXECUTION into said program, and make said program broadcast onto every TV on the planet. All while in a prison cell on Prison Island. So... the Eclipse Cannon is the least of the problems with Gerald's revenge plot.

    That said, I assume it was just a military weapon for GUN.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
  14. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    This is the most likely case. Considering this is Earth, and if we assume the series is set around 1991/2001, nothing much to go off, the United Federation would be having a rivalry with Soviets 50 years ago.

    ~Ah, this old conersation.

    -------
    Knuckles left Angel Island to stop Sonic collecting the Chaos Emeralds. Angel Island goes unmentioned in the manual and Knuckles is described as a stranger.
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    It does not.
    After Sonic 2's Adventure means it's, well, after Sonic the Hedgehog 2's Adventure. That does not preclude anything from taking place between it. While the description of the Death Egg includes the phrase "the previous adventure", if we've learned anything in this thread about this manual, it's that anything can be vague. Specifically, the fact it's set up Sonic the Hedgehog 2's adventure as the focus, meaning it can be the only previous adventure in question.

    How to get across what I mean, I'm always bad at this...

    "The Chaos Emeralds...

    Seven Jewels of unlimited power, said to be found in various locations around the world."

    While this describes the Chaos Emeralds, the only reason we're focusing on them is due to the set up naming them as the focus. If we change the set up, we change the meaning.

    "The Sol Emeralds...

    Seven Jewels of unlimited power, said to be found in various locations around the world."

    Same as the describer, the only reason it's "the previous adventure" is because it's been set up as the focus already.

    EDIT: Got more, cat stepped on keyboard, will edit post.
     
  15. laughing_sun

    laughing_sun

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    I think it's pretty unambiguous that they had never met prior to Angel Island Zone.

    That said, it can be wrestled-into place via head canon. I just don't think Sonic 3 was developed with Triple Trouble in-mind.
     
  16. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Guess I'm posting here now.

    Yes, that was when Knuckles and Robotnik first met, so still a while before Sonic and Knuckles met. We never actually get details on that first meeting on Angel Island beyond the in-game events.

    Basically:

    Even if you think Knuckles was nothing but a rival with no friendliness to his relationship with Sonic, I doubt he'd think Sonic was trying to conquer the world after returning the Master Emerald when Knuckles was helpless to stop him from simply flying away with it:

    In Sonic and Tails 2's manual, Knuckles is referred to as a stranger:

    Literally the only time this manual story could happen is when Knuckles is aware of Sonic, is being tricked by Robotnik fully instead of simply acting on info Robotnik's providing, but Sonic isn't aware of him.

    So to summarise the timeline:

    >Sonic the Hedgehog 3 Knuckles Profile
    >Sonic Triple Trouble
    >Sonic the Hedgehog 3 Manual Story
    >Sonic the Hedgehog 3
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
  17. laughing_sun

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    The timeline in the Sonic 3 manual is as follows:

    Knuckles:

    >Death Egg crashes
    >Several days later, Knuckles meets Eggman

    Sonic & Tails:

    >Death Egg crashes
    >Several days later, Sonic resolves to investigate the "Floating Island"

    Eggman:

    >Death Egg crashes
    >Detects Emeralds on Angel Island, builds Launch Base, captures animals and turns them into robots, builds and installs an environment changing machine in Mushroom Hill Zone...

    But you're saying Eggman collects six Chaos Emeralds from some other location after the Death Egg crashed and after he talked to Knuckles, then runs an experiment and loses them, and then everyone goes after those Emeralds...all in between the Death Egg crashing and Sonic arriving on Angel Island? When he has already detected Chaos Emeralds on Angel Island and is making preparations to steal those?

    I don't know. I think there is strong evidence that Sonic 3 directly follows Sonic 2 without any adventures/games in-between. Sonic 2-3-K progression is pretty rock solid in terms of story.

    Knuckles from Sonic R:

    Knuckles from Sonic the Fighters:

    I'd say just take the "thinks Sonic is trying to take over the world" with a grain of salt. Honestly Knuckles falls for Eggman's trick again in Sonic Adventure and ends up fighting Sonic. And that's after Eggman betrays him and steals the Master Emerald in S3K. That's after Mecha Sonic steals it again. And that's after the events of Chaotix where he fights Eggman again.

    But really, I think the GG games just take place in their own continuity with Sonic & Tails 2 basically being the GG equivalent to Sonic 3. :/ I mean the game is still talking about 6 Chaos Emeralds and these guys haven't left South Island yet.

    Plus, are we suggesting that Triple Trouble takes place BEFORE Sonic 2 GG?
     
  18. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Or he collected them before heading to Angel Island to tend to the Death Egg. The wording in the manual is vague, enough that the SEGA PC Translator also thought he got off the Death Egg, but I highly doubt he would have survived being on something that struck a landmass hard enough to level mountains.

    I'm of the opinion he got off the Death Egg, waited for it to come back down and went to it once it was, only to find it on Angel Island.

    He detects a huge Chaos Emerald signature. Once again, vague wording, he could be detecting the Master Emerald, as the Angel Island Chaos Emeralds are long gone at this point.

    To summarise:

    >Robotnik escapes the Death Egg after his defeat in Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (MD).
    >Robotnik eventually manages to stealthily collect six of the Chaos Emeralds after several encounters with the Hedgehog.*
    >The Death Egg eventually crashes down, Robotnik makes his way to its crash location.
    >Robotnik finds Angel Island and, after a couple of days, happens to meet Knuckles while dealing with the Death Egg. He claims Sonic is evil to pit the Needle-mole against the Needle-mouse.**
    >Using his Chaos Emeralds, he tries testing his 'ultimate weapon', most likely the Death Egg.*** The Chaos Emeralds scatter when the test fails.
    >Knuckles, believing Sonic to be evil, decides to confront the Hedgehog before he can start making his way to Angel Island.
    >Sonic Triple Trouble ensues.
    >Knuckles and Sonic end their first encounter on less hostile terms. Knuckles returns to Angel Island, while Sonic and Tails fly to an island.
    >Sonic and Tails, while on said island, realise the Death Egg has crashed down and immediately start heading for it.
    >Upon getting there, Knuckles knocks Sonic back and takes the Chaos Emeralds.
    >Sonic the Hedgehog 3 ensues.

    *Sonic Blast gives us the convenient idea that Sonic actually keeps a Chaos Emerald on his person. This is where the seventh Chaos Emerald is for the 8-Bits: Sonic's holding on to that one.
    **Fun fact: turns out the Japanese name for Echidna is "Needle-Mole", hence the "He is a mole, after all" in his profile.
    ***I'm aware of the Atomic Destroyer in-game, but I'don't have the translations of the descriptive paragraphs telling us if the Atomic Destroyer is the ultimate weapon or not. My translator friend is currently sleeping: it's 2:50am currently, they're an hour ahead and they have a proper sleeping pattern. I'll ask another to give it a shot, though. Though I also don't doubt Robotnik would be building an ultimate weapon elsewhere while repairs to the Death Egg were on-going, or even starting before the crash and heading off mid-construction when it did hit Earth/Angel Island.
     
  19. Pengi

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    Nah, it's previous/last 前回: https://jlearn.net/Dictionary/Search?by=jpn&type=s&term=前回
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
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  20. laughing_sun

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    The implication is that they were on this island at the time that the Death Egg crashed into Angel Island and the only noteworthy thing that happened was the tsunami. Regardless, it's only a few days that pass between the Death Egg crashing and Tails picking up the signal and Sonic finding the ring... the ring that washed up because of the tsunami.

    So we are saying that not only was Sonic 2 Mega Drive not "the last adventure" but every Game Gear game took place between Sonic 2 and Sonic 3's Prologue? And then in a matter of days Sonic & Tails 2 take place between the tsunami (Death Egg crash) and Sonic finding the ring washing up on shore of whatever island he is on?

    Wait a second.

    Triple Trouble ends with Knuckles being imprisoned by Eggman and Sonic rescuing him? So how exactly does he go to being Sonic's enemy again and Eggman's ally? It seems to me that the reason you don't like it taking place *after* Sonic 3 is just as valid a reason why it can't take place *before* Sonic 3 either, in addition to the hyper-compressed timeline of Eggman taking over South Island three times in the length of time it took the Death Egg to fall from orbit and a 4th time between when Angel Island is impacted and a couple days thereafter.

    Triple Trouble is a direct followup to Chaos, which is a direct followup to 8-bit Sonic 2 which is a direct followup to 8-bit Sonic 1, which is sort of an alternate retelling of 16-bit Sonic 1. Sonic 3 is a followup to 16-bit Sonic 2 which is a followup to 16-bit Sonic 1. The GG games and the MD games really have no influence on each other in terms of story. The progression of the story in the 8-bit world is ignored by Sonic Team and STI. And Sonic Team and STI 's stories clearly weren't taken into account in the 8-bit titles. Sonic 3 introduces Knuckles, and he shows up in the 8-bit equivilant to Sonic 3. The 8-bit world introduces Fang/Nack and he is used twice more in a take-it-or-leave-it kart racer and a take-it-or-leave-it fighting game that most would throw out on the basis of 8 Chaos Emeralds alone (never mind there are *technically* 8 in Sonic 3, and in practice, 14).

    The way I see it, it's two strings of adventures that are really not compatible, and that's fine. In order to have them fit in the same timeline, you have to sort of... make editorial changes to one story or the other, and to me, the story as told is more valuable then all stories being in-continuity. The Japanese 16-bit manuals have this nice sort of framing mechanism where they almost wink and nod at the player that these are all just "actors on a stage" in a dramatic performance. The 8-bit version is just a different take with the same characters. That's my head-canon anyway. If you want to head-canon them altogether that's fine, but the compressed timeline between Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 strains my suspension-of-disbelief too much. Not as bad as Sonic Team's "Two Worlds" I suppose, but still too much. :D