don't click here

The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,649
    772
    93
    England
    Complaining
    Simpler answer is that he has that he simply Chaos Emerald on hand, rather than actively guarding it. You enter a room in some Aquatic Ruin Zone-esque graphics (Aquatic Relix) Zone, though the arena has Hidden Palace Zone graphics it just seems to be another island ruins area rather than Angel Island.

    Indeed, I can see them dropping the dragon, that's extra work on a timeframe they're rushing on, but adding the Master Emerald and integrating it into the plot as heavily as they did, and not just in Sonic's story but Knuckles' as well, seems a bit much.

    So I did a bit of research, by which I mean I entered both 柱 and ピラー into Google Translate, and found... that yes, they say pillar. However, when I hit the swap button and made it English to Japanese for Pillar, I noticed that a few words in Japanese that mean pillar have extra meaning:


    "Cornerstone of the Chaos Emeralds"
    "Leader of the Chaos Emeralds"
    "Center of the..."
    "Nucleus of the..."

    etcetc.

    This one is most interesting, since when I clicked that one Google Translate said it meant a familiar word: "Master". The other two say 柱石 "Pillarstone" and 中枢 "Central" respectively, according to Google Translate.

    I'm not suggesting anything, but it makes me curious as to if pillar was used because it means more in Japanese than it does in English, but they didn't know it's not as varied in English?

    Either way, with all this talk of the Chaos Emeralds and manuals, let's bring forth all mentions of the Chaos Emeralds in the manuals of the Classic Era games.

    Sonic the Hedgehog (16-Bit) JP Manual
    Interesting to note that apparently South Island is the one causing the distortions where we find the Chaos Emeralds.

    Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (16-Bit) JP Manual
    EDIT: Mistook the US manual on the wiki due to headache, my apologies. Changed to the Japanese manual, where there's nothing on Chaos Emerald locations, just intentions to collect.

    Sonic the Hedgehog 3 JP Manual
    According to the manual, they're once again buried but on Angel Island this time. It also talks about Robotnik detecting a huge Chaos Emerald, a descriptive later used for the Master Emerald in Sonic & Knuckles' JP Manual meaning that yes, the Master Emerald was a thing at this point in time.

    Also, JUSTICE! I missed that part where he escaped before the Death Egg fell initially! 8-Bits are canon, baby!
    (I'm joking, it's still up to the person's personal view)

    Knuckles Profile from the manual, which heavily talks about the Chaos Emeralds.
    Something interesting to note is that Knuckles was unconscious for an unknown period of time before waking up and finding himself flung out of the altar.
    I'm not saying he was unconscious for the entirety of the events of the Classic Era until the Death Egg fell, but it's an odd detail to include when a simple "They disappeared, then when he went to look for them on the island the Death Egg crashed" would have sufficed. I've also never seen the Chaos Emeralds render someone unconscious before.

    Did... did the Master Emerald Tikal him until the Death Egg fell? That... might explain a few things actually...

    Theories for later.

    Also: "His hobby is, of course, digging holes. He is a mole, after all."
    Found why Sonic the Hedgehog (OVA) calls him a mole!

    Sonic & Knuckles JP Manual
    "One could naturally call the "Master Emerald" was enshrined"
    Why do I feel like Sonic's the one who named it the Master Emerald when I read this? Either way, only mention of Chaos Emeralds in this manual is about how the Master Emerald is a huge one, which ties back to Sonic the Hedgehog 3 JP Manual's note of a huge Chaos Emerald hidden beneath Angel Island's surface.

    Sonic 3D: Flickies Island JP Manual
    "Indeed, the legend of this island's Chaos Emeralds"
    Well, there's the second indication that the Chaos Emeralds were once a collection of jewels on separate islands.

    Meanwhile, on the 8-Bit side of things, we have:

    Sonic the Hedgehog (8-Bit) JP Manual
    Basically a brief summary of events before Sonic got to him, and a minor expansion on the Chaos Emeralds being a super substance that gives energy to all living beings, nothing about where they're hidden.

    Wait, gives energy to all living beings?! *flashbacks to Sonic the Hedgehog (2006)'s infamous Super Transformation scene*

    ...moving on...

    Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (8-Bit) JP Manual
    Nothing on their location in this one, just that they're located somewhere on South Island for this adventure.

    Sonic the Hedgehog Chaos JP Manual
    In Sonic Chaos, apparently South Island is supported by the Chaos Emeralds power and sinks when one is removed from the island and the others scatter. Which somewhat conflicts with other games in the 8-Bit Era as well. Didn't Sonic take them off-island when he chased Robotnik to the Sky Base Zone in Sonic the Hedgehog (8-Bit)? Did the island start to sink then as well? Though they were apparently off island on another adventure when it happened, so it must take a bit of time before sinking starts for them to hear rumours and make their way back...

    Sonic Triple Trouble JP Manual
    The Chaos Emeralds are more involved with the plot here, with Robotnik having collected them and accidentally dispersed them around, so nothing really on where they're hidden. Interestingly, it makes reference to the events of Sonic the Hedgehog Chaos as well in Sonic & Tails' Character Profiles, so I'd have expected the island beginning to sink to be the indication Robotnik slipped off with the Chaos Emeralds, since he was also building a weapon to use them.

    Notably, Fang the Sniper's Profile doesn't suggest a link between subspace and the Chaos Emeralds, only that he lives in Subspace and seems to be collecting the Emeralds. Tied with the Sonic the Hedgehog (16-Bit) JP Manual suggesting it's South Island causing the distortions the Chaos Emeralds hide in, makes me wonder how tied the Chaos Emeralds and subspace really are.

    Tails' Adventure JP Manual
    The Chaos Emeralds apparently reside on Cocoa Island before Sonic and Tails met. And the Battle Kukku Armada sent large scale mining corps. to Cocoa Island to find them, suggesting that once again they're buried on the island.

    Sonic Labyrinth JP Manual
    "Daahahaha! Sonic, I got the Chaos Emeralds of this island!!"
    And there's the third indicator of separate Island Emeralds: Chaos Emeralds of this Island, in reference to South Island.

    Sonic Blast JP Manual
    Apparently, if you shoot a Chaos Emerald with a laser, it splits into 5 different coloured gems. It's also interesting that Robotnik says "Now that the Chaos Emeralds are gone from this island" despite only one Chaos Emerald disappearing from it, one that Sonic actively had on hand. I'm guessing it's an educated guess that the others will have scattered after one (quite literally) split, since the manual also says South Island was protected by the Chaos Emeralds.

    So yeah, it looks like there was a set for each island initially. I don't mind the change to seven Chaos Emeralds throughout, though. It makes sense, streamlines the lore properly and saves so many questions like why Robotnik hasn't gone for the Cocoa Island Chaos Emerald while Sonic was snoozing on South Island, or why not retrieve a Chaos Emerald from elsewhere to support South Island before it sinks in Sonic the Hedgehog Chaos?
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
  2. laughing_sun

    laughing_sun

    Member
    63
    44
    18
    What is this image? I can't really make it out. Was there an actual dragon set to appear in Sonic & Knuckles at some point?

    A couple things to note about the dragon. First, the fact that the mural in Hidden Palace is different from what is described in Sonic 3 is not really a problem since I do not believe he was at the Hidden Palace altar. When he awakes up from the explosion, he can see the Death Egg in the lake. I don't remember any mention of him being teleported to the surface - though I suppose that is possible. From my reading though, it sounds like he was at some external altar like the one from Sonic Adventure. Furthermore, the mural depicted in Sonic & Knuckles could just be insinuating that Eggman/Kyodai Eggman Robo/Egg Bomber is the "dragon" so it still works on some level.

    Finally, I think we saw some version of the dragon in 1998, so the concept of the dragon "hatching" as a result of the Death Egg landing on Angel Island is still valid. It's an indirect relationship to be sure, but the Death Egg crashing is what brings the Master Emerald and Angel Island to Eggman's attention. Later he is studying the stone tablets in the Echidna ruins, learns about Chaos, and thus sets to free him. All this was started by the "Dragon Egg" appearing on Angel Island.
     
  3. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,649
    772
    93
    England
    Complaining
    It said he left the altar:
    So could still be the Hidden Palace.
     
  4. laughing_sun

    laughing_sun

    Member
    63
    44
    18
    I always understood this passage to be describing the Death Egg crashing into the island. The "floating sensation" that Knuckles feels, is what you get when you jump inside an elevator. The Death Egg has just slammed into Angel Island, effectively knocking the floor out from under him. The island then crashes and he goes unconscious. When he wakes up, the island is at sea level (something strangely not mentioned at all under his profile) and the Death Egg is sitting in the lake.

    Knuckles is a "harimogura" in Japanese. That can be translated as "echidna," "spiny anteater" or literally: "spiny mole" in the same way that Sonic is "Mr. Needlemouse" or "Harinezumi."
     
  5. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,649
    772
    93
    England
    Complaining
    Hm, possibly. It's the "appearing near the lake" part that might be throwing me off, since 'appearing' makes it sound like it's on it's way down to hit the lake that becomes Launch Base Zone, rather than "appeared to be in the lake" that would mean it's in there already.
     
  6. laughing_sun

    laughing_sun

    Member
    63
    44
    18
    That's possible. Based on the violence of its arrival in the main-story section, I just assumed it wasn't something that Knuckles could casually observe. Also, it made sense to me that the force of the Death Egg smacking the island is what made the Chaos Emeralds react so violently. Otherwise, why would they hide themselves in advance? Did the Chaos Emeralds "know" that Eggman was coming?
     
  7. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,649
    772
    93
    England
    Complaining
    Well, I mean, they're apparently capable of sensing thoughts and time travel.

    To be fair, he didn't casually observe it. He sees something "appearing near the lake" (ran that by a translator, the translation is accurate) and worries that it's the legendary dragon's egg (*coughPerfectChaoscough*). Doesn't say anything about him witnessing touchdown in either interpretation. Not to mention the Chaos Emeralds are reacting preemptively anyway: there's a flash and 'kiiin', then the floating feeling and unconsciousness.


    So they've gotten out of the way before the Death Egg crashed and were prepping for it before then. Not to mention it's described as gently floating, which, from the description of the impact of the Death Egg, I don't think could be described in any way like 'gentle'. If it were "The last thing Knuckles remembered was being suddenly jolted from his feet, his body leaving the floor completely and then no more" then I'd be inclined to agree it was the Death Egg's impact, but 'gentle' for something that levelled mountains on impact and forced a continent to the ocean below? Not so much.

    Still, the problem is that ruddy wording. "Appearing near the lake" implies it's still coming, not there yet. Not to mention the Death Egg is not near a lake, it's in the lake when it's hit the island.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
  8. Pengi

    Pengi

    Member
    1,891
    526
    93
    Sonic 3 & Knuckles Zone concept art.

    Some of it was repurposed from Sonic 2.

    The image shows Super Sonic in space facing a dragon/serpent-like creature or robot.

    In the final game, the "Super Sonic in space" level is Doomsday Zone, where Super Sonic fights a giant Eggman robot. The legend in Hidden Palace Zone depicts Sonic with a yellow aura around him facing a giant Eggman with the Master Emerald in his hand.

    The Sonic 3 manual's emerald altar legend is about a dragon egg.

    So it would seem that at one point the equivalent of Doomsday Zone would have had Sonic fighting a dragon-like thing that "hatched" from the Death Egg.

    It says that Knuckles left the altar first. But it also says that the Pillar is underground - whether the grammar also implies that the Chaos Emerald altar is underground, or if it's left ambiguous, is something someone else would have to confirm.

    But if you do read it as the altar and dragon legend being above ground, then that would indicate a change to the story when Sonic & Knuckles shows an emerald altar and legend underground.

    I doubt the scenario writers went in with the intention of the story of having two emerald altars and two murals but only showing one in-game.

    It's returned to him at the end of the game.

    The manual doesn't use any of those terms though. It uses the English word "pillar" and the kanji 柱, meaning pillar/post. https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/柱

    Looking at the scans again, above the kanji is the furigana ちゅう.

    https://jisho.org/word/柱-1

    Cylinder / prism.


    The's the American manual.

    In the Sonic prologue, maybe, but not the Knuckles prologue. They weren't necessarily written at the same time.

    But this is something I'm curious about.

    There's a line about Tails detecting Chaos Emerald(s) and a line about Eggman detecting Chaos Emerald(s).

    2本のシッポのキツネ・テイルスは、突然始まった強力なカオスエメラルドの反応を彼が発明したジュエルレーダーでキャッチしていました。

    デスエッグの開けた大地の亀裂からキャッチできる、巨大なカオスエメラルドの反応。

    Sega PC translated the second line as "From the crevice created by the fall of the base, a massive presence of Chaos Emeralds is detected."

    Windii translated it as "He could catch a signal of a huge Chaos Emerald from a crack in the earth opened by the Death Egg."

    Could anyone fluent in Japanese grammar confirm whether or not the line can be read both ways (the reaction is big vs the emerald is big)? Or did Sega PC get it wrong?
     
  9. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,649
    772
    93
    England
    Complaining
    Ah, yes, it's a quick scene at the end between the cheering animals and the usual Tornado flying while the credits play. It is rather peculiar to include that scene.

    I know, I noted that in the first paragraph. I'm just wondering if the word pillar generally means more in Japanese than it does in English, but they used a loan word without checking if it had the same connotations.

    Alternately, the Master Emerald originally had a different design until they changed it into the familiar Brilliant Cut gem.

    So it is. Man, my headache today is worse than I thought. Changed, thank you for alerting me.

    My friend thinks it's a giant signature, but note the "found the signature of a powerful Chaos Emerald", singular, in the first line, so...
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
  10. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member

    I confess I barely see the difference.
     
  11. Pengi

    Pengi

    Member
    1,891
    526
    93
    They used the English loan word and the Japanese word though. There's no ambiguity there.

    Plurals are often context based in Japanese. With the Sonic 3 backstory for example, I've seen some people translate it as the elders wanting the "power stones" and others translate it as "power stone". I've no idea which would be the correct reading, or if it's ambiguous.

    There's some ambiguity or disagreement with the Tails line:

    Windii's translation: Tails, a two-tailed fox, suddenly started catching a strong Chaos Emerald signal on the jewel radar he invented.

    Sega PC's translation: Tails, a two-tailed fox, read a strong Chaos Emerald reaction on the Jewel Reader, a machine he has developed.

    Your friend's translation: Fox Tails, with two tails, found the signature of a powerful chaos emerald that had begun and caught it with the "jewel radar"


    So with Tails, is it a strong signal, or a strong Chaos Emerald?

    With Eggman, is it a huge signal, or a huge Chaos Emerald?

    Different people have translated it differently - so are these lines ambiguous in Japanese? Can they be read both ways? Is one interpretation more natural than the other?
     
  12. laughing_sun

    laughing_sun

    Member
    63
    44
    18
    I'll just have to take your word for it. I don't see it. :/ Either way, a "dragon" doesn't have to be a literal serpent. I'll buy that maybe "Kyodai Eggman Robo" wasn't intended to be the dragon at the time that story was written, but I don't think it's a huge discontinuity to call that robot a "dragon." Even so, whether the dragon was re-purposed or abandoned, the "Pillar" was resurrected by Chaotix, but is now being called the Master Emerald Pillar. Also, of note, "Pillar" is always in quotes. Even in the Chaotix manual. This just seems odd to me. Death Egg isn't. Tornado isn't. Chaos Emerald and Master Emerald aren't (aside from when the Master Emerald is first named). But the "Pillar" is always the "Pillar." Why the air-quotes if it's a literal pillar?

    We see an altar above ground in Sonic Adventure and basically forever after that. We also see a mural in Sonic Adventure of a dragon destroying the world, ostensibly made by the Knuckles Tribe. So by 1998 we have the Hidden Palace Zone underground (Sonic & Knuckles) and an altar above ground that was also used some time in the past (Sonic Adventure) and then we have a description of an altar in Sonic 3 that does not show up in at all in Sonic 3 (which to my reading appears to be external, not internal). It's possible the Sonic 3 altar is meant to be the Sonic Adventure one. Or just another one altogether. Or - to your point - it could be intended to be Hidden Palace and they hadn't quite finalized the concept at that point in development.

    Also remember though, at this point in the story, the "Pillar" is "sleeping." If the "Pillar" is the Master Emerald, it's possible that the Chaos Emeralds being taken to Hidden Palace (because they were staged at the wrong altar) are what "wakes up" the Master Emerald (makes it start glowing) and thus the Master Emerald starts raising the island.

    If the "Pillar" concept was changed or modified at some point in development, I think that would be difficult to know for sure without figuring out who wrote the original stories and contacting that person (assuming they even remember the specifics about some story-blurbs they wrote 27 years ago). Honestly that would be the ideal solution.

    I suppose if the "Pillar" is the altar, I could buy that if it was intended to be machinery that harnesses the power of the Chaos Emeralds. We do see a lot of machinery in Lava Reef. But if it has it's own distinct power...something about that just doesn't sit right with me. Why would you need CHAOS Emeralds to control the power of another seemingly Echidna-made object? If they were providing *and* regulating the power, maybe? Then it would sort of make sense as a terra-forming machine that results in the Chaotix situation. Of course that seems to be retconned heavily in Adventure...

    Actually the Master Emerald (and Chaos Emeralds) only became Brilliant Cut, or Modern Brilliant Cut starting with Sonic Adventure. The cut pattern of the Master Emerald in Sonic Adventure 2 then becomes even more complex. I haven't been able to find a name for it (if it's even real). The cut in Sonic 3 & Knuckles gems are more like a Mazarin Cut since the pattern on the table are triangles and not diamonds. The 32-bit Chaos Emeralds (R and the Fighters) appear to be Single Cut.

    https://www.jewelry-secrets.com/Blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Brilliant-Cut-Diamond-Evolution.jpg

    The word used for Tails' discovery is: 強力 (powerful, strong) and the sentence is arranged as such: strong Chaos Emerald signal.

    The word used for Eggman's discovery is: 巨大 (huge, gigantic, enormous) and the sentence is (again) basically arranged as such: big Chaos Emerald signal.

    Both a bit ambiguous at my level of knowledge.

    Also, wouldn't the Master Emerald qualify as a "prism?" "Crystal cylinder" vs "Crystal prism?" I still think it's ambiguous. Thanks for the clarification on the kanji though. I actually looked up the wrong one (but looked similar) and it was like "annotation or footnote." 注 Clearly not correct though.

    To me it makes more sense for the Master Emerald to resurrect an island from the ancient civilization (in Chaotix) than just the pillar it is sitting on. If the manual described the "Pillar" as being "powered" by the Chaos Emeralds that would be one thing. But it says that "it's power" is controlled by the Chaos Emeralds. Maybe we can stretch that to the Chaos Emeralds regulating it's power (by giving granting it to the "Pillar").

    Here's some more fuel to the theory-crafting fire:

    Is there a difference between Chaos Emeralds and Time Stones? Or are Time Stones just more associated with time control because they happen to be on Little Planet? Chaos Emeralds seem to have time-control abilities in later materials, though maybe that was a deliberate change so that Time Stones could be retired from canon. (Iizuka's comment on there being too many Emeralds).
     
  13. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,649
    772
    93
    England
    Complaining
    That's fair, I was just pondering if, due to the other words of pillar in Japanese having far more meaning, they thought the same as in English, like when they apparently didn't check Genocide City's name.

    Apparently so. I trust my friend to give me to accurate translation though (they dislike useless faff that often comes with localised translations), so if they say it's "the signature of a powerful Chaos Emerald", I'm going to go with it being a powerful Chaos Emerald being detected and not a powerful signal.
    Fair, though again, if my friend says it's a powerful Chaos Emerald, I'm inclined to believe them. Though wouldn't it stand to reason that if the signature is big enough to warrant note, it must still be a more powerful Chaos Emerald at the helm, essentially what the Master Emerald is? Especially since the Angel Island Chaos Emeralds are gone at this point in time, so the only indicator of Chaos Energy on Angel Island would be the Master Emerald?

    Interesting. I'm not much on gemstone cuts, so I was just using "Brilliant Cut" in reference to anything gemstone with a V appearance as such.

    Also, it's just occurred to me to note that Tails had a Jewel Radar in Sonic the Hedgehog 3. I wonder if it's the same one as Sonic Riders...
     
  14. Pengi

    Pengi

    Member
    1,891
    526
    93
    I think you're trying to make sense of all the games together as a cohesive whole.

    I'm trying to find what the intention was at the time. At the time they wrote the Sonic 3 manual, they hadn't even conceived of Sonic Adventure.

    I'm sure the idea of Perfect Chaos was probably recycled and evolved from the Sonic 3 dragon - but I don't think it's literally the same thing within continuity (they already associated the dragon egg with the Death Egg).

    Just like Mushroom Hill Zone was an evolved version of Sonic 2's Wood Zone - it's not literally the same thing. They changed it and added new ideas.

    For what it's worth, the floating Master Emerald pedestal has the same design sensibility as the teleporters, so there's potentially a technological element at play.

    From the Chaotix perspective, it might be best to view the Master Emerald as a battery and the Pillar as the machine. Or maybe Chaotix really is using Pillar as a synonym for the Master Emerald, even though Sonic & Knuckles didn't. Either way, it's like they're trying to reconcile the two ideas.

    Japanese wiktionary does have 結晶柱 under prism: https://ja.wiktionary.org/wiki/prism

    2. 結晶柱。柱状結晶。
    Crystal pillar . Columnar crystals.

    Everything is pointing towards the pillar being a pillar. It doesn't look like there's any obscure hidden meaning.

    Have you asked your friend if it can be interpreted both ways? Or if the surrounding sentences about the Chaos Emerald(s) give it a different context? If there are multiple Chaos Emeralds, that would result in a powerful/big signal.

    We see ambiguous sentences in English all the time: "The cat chased the mouse until it stumbled and fell." Did the cat stumble, or the mouse?
     
  15. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,649
    772
    93
    England
    Complaining
    They say it's too ambiguous to determine what the signal is talking about, as it doesn't specify the number or any plurals in regards to the signal. So yes, it can be interpreted both ways due to the nature of Japanese.

    Contextually, isn't the entire point of the story at this point that said Chaos Emeralds are gone, to Knuckles' immense concern? What would Tails and Robotnik be detecting since the Chaos Emeralds are, well, gone?
     
  16. Pengi

    Pengi

    Member
    1,891
    526
    93
    Did they say anything about whether it was the signal that was giant or the Chaos Emerald(s), or is that also ambiguous?

    That depends. People tend to translate the rest of the Eggman section with "Chaos Emeralds" plural. In the Knuckles section there's the context that the opening paragraphs had established Knuckles' 7 Chaos Emeralds. As for the main Sonic/Eggman prologue, I have no idea.

    Windii's translation:

    And the end of the Knuckles section:

    We know from the previous two games that the Special Stages are associated with the geographic location they're accessed. South Island had Chaos Emeralds, but they were in "distortions". West Side Island had Chaos Emeralds, but they were "sealed". Extending this to Sonic CD, the Time Stones were said to be on the Little Planet, but they were also inside the Special Stages. So it's reasonable that the emerald presence could be detected on a particular island, even when they're inside that island's Special Stages.

    Maybe Eggman detected them underground before they disappeared? Maybe the Sonic/Eggman prologue is just inconsistent with the Knuckles prologue, which is further into the manual?

    Also consider that Sonic 3 originally had a different opening - no Super Sonic, no Knuckles stealing Sonic's Chaos Emeralds. Sonic's West Side Island Chaos Emeralds aren't mentioned in the manual at all. It wouldn't surprise me if the original story was that Sonic was simply collecting the Floating Island's 7 Chaos Emeralds, which had vanished into the Special Stages.
     
  17. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,649
    772
    93
    England
    Complaining
    They think it's in reference to the signal.
    Indeed, but there's nothing indicating a plural nor anything suggesting a number for the signal itself. It's just a large Chaos Emerald signature, which could mean the Master Emerald or a... what's a group noun for Chaos Emeralds? Cluster? Cluster sounds good... or a cluster of Chaos Emeralds. So once again, we're in ambiguous territory. Man, this manual's nothing but ambiguous wording all around, huh?

    What're your thoughts on the Knuckles backstory, where the Chaos Emeralds blind Knuckles with a flash (Chaos Control?), and then he feels a gentle weightlessness before losing consciousness, out of curiosity?

    Hm, actually, I have to ponder the Special Stages of Sonic the Hedgehog CD, since it turned out the Special Stages of Sonic the Hedgehog (MD) were being caused by South Island rather than the Chaos Emeralds. Since a lot of elements crossed over with development, were the Time Stones hidden in distortions caused by the Little Planet instead? Just simple musings on that.
     
  18. laughing_sun

    laughing_sun

    Member
    63
    44
    18
    I am trying to understand what it means for the story of Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles, and Chaotix. And if it changed over time, then I am happy to have that information as well. The "Pillar" is mentioned twice in Sonic 3's manual and it is ambiguous as to what it is supposed to be. I think we all agree there are basically three options: an unrealized concept never seen in any game; the Master Emerald itself; or the cradle the Master Emerald sits inside of in Hidden Palace Zone. If it's the first, then it was retconned by Chaotix, and that retcon, I would argue, is more important, in much the same way that Sonic 3 & Knuckles' Hidden Palace Zone is more important than Sonic 2's. Sonic 3 being released half-finished means that if the dragon or "Pillar" ideas were supposed to manifest in the second half but were cut instead... means they are... well, just cut-content and from a game-development perspective, that is interesting, but not from a story perspective. If the "Pillar" was always intended to be the altar or the Master Emerald, then it's not retconned, and still has story significance as well as game-development significance.

    One thing to note is that the myth of the dragon never actually states that a dragon will hatch from the egg. All it says is that the dragon's egg will bring disaster to the island. I think it's clear with Eggman, EggRobo and Mecha Sonic's schemes that disaster is brought to the island, one way or another. So that prophecy, as described in Sonic 3, is fulfilled by the events in Sonic & Knuckles. If you require a literal dragon to appear and be hatched, we see that in Sonic Adventure, and Eggman is the one who does it, as a direct result of the Death Egg crashing on Angel Island. It surely might not have been the original intent, but is it consistent with the previously published content? I think it is. If we want to explore what may have been, I think that's an interesting exercise, but from the perspective of the narrative, I think what we got with the "dragon egg" still works in-universe the way it was presented.

    It's more than possible that's what they were trying to do. Again, if the Master Emerald and the "Pillar" were always intended to be the same, than it's possible the reason the "Pillar" isn't mentioned in the S&K manual is because we get the reveal of what it is. The problem is that the "Pillar" is described from Knuckle's perspective in Sonic 3, and the "Master Emerald" is described from Sonic's in Sonic & Knuckles. That may be why there seems to be some discontinuity there. Knuckles calls it a "Pillar." Sonic calls it a "Master Emerald." Chaotix calls it a "Master Emerald Pillar" to reconcile the two. Eventually the "Pillar" portion is dropped and it just becomes known as the Master Emerald when they clean up the Chaos Emerald lore in Sonic Adventure.

    If "Chaos Emerald Crystal Prism: "Pillar"" is a valid interpretation, I would say that does not rule out the Master Emerald from what is being described. But I will grant you that it could be the shrine itself certainly. Again, I think it's still ambiguous. That's why (when I get some time to look at it) I'm going to dig into the Chaotix manual and see if there is some clarification that can be gleaned from it.

    Honestly my suspicion is that you are collecting Angel Island's Chaos Emeralds in Sonic 3 and not West Side Island's. Literally two minutes after Knuckles swipes your Emeralds you've already collected the green one. Jokes aside though, the Emeralds you collect in Sonic 3 do not look like the West Side Island set. They are dodecahedrons whereas the West Side Island set are hexagonal single cut as viewed from the top. The colors are also different. Plus it would seem weird for Sonic to bring the West Side Island Emeralds to Hidden Palace instead of the Angel Island ones that (theoretically) belong there. From a story-perspective, Sonic should be restoring the Floating Island's Chaos Emeralds that Knuckles lost, not bringing replacements.

    I think the opening scene really only serves a three purposes. It explains why you can't just access Super Sonic from the outset of Sonic 3. It communicates that Knuckles is a tough guy and is going to be serious trouble for Sonic. And finally it gives Knuckles a reason to think Sonic is the badguy. This Eggman character tells him that Sonic is targeting the Emeralds after Knuckles loses them mysteriously. Then this clown Sonic shows up with 7 Chaos Emeralds! Obviously Eggman was telling the truth and Sonic stole them somehow. After that point, I think we are just supposed to forget about the West Side Island set.

    I think that's viable. Little Planet seems to move through time rather than space, but if spatial movement can force Chaos Emeralds into a Special Stage, I'm sure temporal movement could do the same for the Time Stones. We know that Angel Island "drifts" so that explains the Special Stages there. I suppose one has to assume that West Side Island moves on it's own as well. That would explain why it is an "illusory" island.

    More fuel: How is it that Sonic, Tails and Knuckles are able to access the power of the Super Emeralds/Chaos Emeralds from Hidden Palace Zone even though they are not in possession of them?
     
  19. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,649
    772
    93
    England
    Complaining
    I wouldn't say direct. His awareness of Angel Island stems from the Death Egg impact, yes, but it's like saying Sonic's the one directly responsible for Chaos' release, since he's the one who sent the Death Egg crashing down in the first place.

    Interesting thought experiment, though: what would have happened if the Death Egg had missed Angel Island?

    To be fair, Knuckles is plenty aware of the Giant Rings, since he's hiding one in Mushroom Hill Zone, and it leads right to Hidden Palace. Might be why the first one is buried (and then Sonic pulls out the Spin Dash).

    Which is one of the answers I mentioned if Knuckles was Tikal'd. They could be the same set, resting on West Side Island after whatever triggered them to warp to it.

    Actually, isn't that the one island where there's no Giant Rings? You need to use the Checkpoints to access the Special Stages, so the one non-moving island is the one island you need technological support on.

    Well, Sonic can't access the form until the Doomsday Zone when the Chaos Emeralds are in the Hidden Palace, unless the Super Emeralds are collected. The Master Emerald is nearby during the entirety of that, so perhaps the Master Emerald and Super-Charged Chaos Emeralds are capable of remote charging?

    Alternately, Sonic does get the Master Emerald as the Death Egg detonates. Perhaps he just got enough of a charge before the Final Weapon took it back to keep him powered through Doomsday Zone?

    Really, just for gameplay purposes.
     
  20. Pengi

    Pengi

    Member
    1,891
    526
    93
    I've not been talking about what's more important today, just what the intention was at the time of writing. All of this stuff was discarded after Chaotix.

    No, but there's the concept art of Super Sonic facing a dragon in outer space, presumably Doomsday Zone, the level after the Death Egg is destroyed.

    In the final game Doomsday Zone reflects the emerald altar legend.

    The "Doomsday Zone" concept art reflects the emerald altar legend in the Sonic 3 manual.

    From this we can infer that there was a change to the story and final boss.

    That page defines "crystal prism" as "columnal crystals". The Master Emerald isn't columnal. Pillars are columnal. It unambiguously calls it a pillar.

    Why would they call a diamond shaped gem a pillar?

    Remember, the Master Emerald is the same shape as the Super Emeralds, and the Super Emeralds weren't part of the plan for Sonic 3 until the game got split in two. What they originally had in mind for the emerald altar isn't necessarily what we saw in Sonic & Knuckles.

    It's ambiguous, but in Sonic 3's bad ending Knuckles has the emeralds you didn't collect, suggesting that they're the ones he stole.

    It doesn't matter, it's inconsistent anyway. The emeralds that Sonic has at the start of the game are different colours to Sonic 2 and the same hexagonal sprites are used on the save file.