The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

Where do you stand on the split timeline?

  1. Makes sense

    19 vote(s)
    28.8%
  2. I hate it

    22 vote(s)
    33.3%
  3. It's alternate dimensions, not split timelines

    8 vote(s)
    12.1%
  4. Doesn't matter either way

    17 vote(s)
    25.8%
  1. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    I'm trying to work out what exactly you're defining as "automated sections". I'll agree with HCZ (not just act 2), ICZ2, FBZ2, and the light tube segments in DEZ. The rest barely take your control away at all, and if it was more than a couple of seconds it only occurred once or twice in the level.

    Compare with Mania where automated sections seem to make up the majority of levels. I'm pretty sure you can beat most zones in the game by holding down for more time than not.

    (This is why Lava Reef Zone is the best zone in both games.)
     
  2. Pengi

    Pengi

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    They've already been taking this exact continuity-light approach for over a decade.

    If they stopped using Wisps and the Deadly Six, that would neither fix nor break continuity.

    This came up in another thread, but Sonic Forces uses the word "sekai" (world) when referring to Classic Sonic - "Sonic from another world". This was translated to "Sonic from another dimension". Given the context, this isn't the big change some people on Twitter suddenly seem to think it is. Blaze the Cat is also from a different "sekai".
     
  3. SystemsReady

    SystemsReady

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    So I suppose you don't like Sonic's Mania win pose either, which makes a reference to beta Sonic 1? :V

    I defined it as "your control or way is limited to where the game wants you to go". So, in Hydrocity Act 2, a good part of that level is holding right or left on those massive downward pipes. In MGZ Act 1, you have several spinning top sections that limit whether you can jump, how fast you can go, forces you to start over entirely if an enemy hits you, and can only progress through the stage while being on the top. Both CNZ acts end with a sequence that is literally just the game pushing you right very fast - you can take your hand off the controller and it won't make any difference. ICZ Act 2 is basically a "running down slopes and through loops" layout in its entirety for Sonic & Tails; there isn't much of it that isn't that. Launch Base Act 1 has those "tubes that shoot you out at super speeds" sections plus also the elevators which control where you can go, while Act 2 has several "hold down left or right to run" sections like ICZ Act 2. Flying Battery Zone Act 2 also has a "hold down right to proceed" which Mania actually homaged in its version. Aaand yeah, those really slow light tube segments in Death Egg.

    This isn't even including the run-or-die sections, or the various other mechanics that keep you from backtracking. ^^;;
     
  4. Palas

    Palas

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    Run-or-die sections are the exact opposite, though. You have to gather speed where it would normally be difficult or counter-intuitive to do so. I like them a lot. Also disabling backtracking doesn't necessarily give off this vibe that you're being controlled or anything like that.
     
  5. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    I'm aware. That still doesn't make me think the change of Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic into two worlds was in any way, shape or form a good idea.
     
  6. Josh

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    But why not? If you're going to have Sonic's original design as a separate playable character, then how is "from another world" in the style of all the various Spider-mans worse than "younger version of current design?"

    Because given how different they look, act, and play, the idea that the 16 year old Classic Sonic would just "grow up" to be the 16 year old Modern Sonic always seemed ridiculous to me. I think prior to Generations, you could argue it was just a stylistic choice (even if the increasingly-scorned fandom didn't see it that way), but we've seen them alongside each other in the same game now.
     
  7. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

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    But I'm not just saying they should be "continuity light" necessarily. I think they should keep better continuity in future games, but rather than spend time and resources on retconning past continuity to "fix it", just ignore most of the plot elements post-Heroes when making new games with a slightly stronger continuity.

    I know you're joking (I think), but no, I think Sonic's win pose is perfectly fine. That little jump into the air during his victory pose isn't the same as changing the character's entire demeanor to service a concept art reference when looking up. I love that art, but I also enjoy the way Sonic acts in the games, and he didn't do that. In Sonic 2 when I reach Death Egg Part 2, I almost always make Sonic look up as the Eggman mech rises and towers above him. I get a kick out of that sort of thing, but giving that animation a goofy curious expression instead of that same badass determination kind of ruins it.

    That one example doesn't ruin the game itself of course. It's just that there are many little things about Mania that just feel "off" or at the very least things I wish were different.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
  8. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Because it adds needless rules to the continuity. Mighty and Ray are not allowed to appear in media depicting the 'modern' design under SEGA's rules, for instance, despite them being fan favourites. This also despite the fact that Sonic Adventure shows that at least Sonic the Hedgehog 2 and Sonic the Hedgehog CD have occurred, indicating that the Classic events have still happened.

    It also divides up Sonic, instead of it just being the single cool blue dude with attitude, which I dislike. Sonic is Sonic, not Sonic is either this smaller version of himself or this lankier version of himself.

    Yes, it requires a retcon of the ages, but a number's better than literally an entire continuity being ripped in two, with these characters over here and these characters over there.
     
  9. Josh

    Josh

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    Fair enough, thanks for answering!

    I think for me, it just always seemed like the post-Adventure games diverged too much from the style and tone of the earlier titles. I mean, one reason Sonic got a redesign was because Sonic Team felt he'd become TOO family-friendly, and going back to my last post, Sonic's concept was a character that could be cute AND self-assured AND determined, and the Adventure redesign pretty much obliterated the "cute" part of that appeal (and I'd argue de-emphasized the "determined" part, though it was at least still there).

    The second the series lost Naoto Ohshima, the difference was palpable in the very next game. And the writer of the games from SA2-Black Knight said himself that the 16-bit games' continuity didn't appeal much to him, so he chose to take it in his own direction. It's really no WONDER things felt so different. That explains WHY I was the weirdo arguing on forms as early as 2002 that Adventure was in a different continuity. From my perspective, the continuity was ripped in two a long time ago (though to be fair, Sonic's continuity was already ripped in like SEVEN even before Adventure), so like, of COURSE I'm gonna be perfectly okay with them finally canonizing it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
  10. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Sonic Adventure always felt like a transitional game to me, especially the Sonic model. It just looks like the model is more proportioned like the Classic cast compared to the later games.

    [​IMG]

    It's the stomach and head proportions, they're rounder.

    (I also subscribe to the idea that Sonic's eyes aren't naturally green, and they stem from the constant exposure to the Chaos Emeralds. Such as what happens when Sonic turns Super Sonic in Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles)

    Still, the difference between the various continuities is that they were all adaptations of one source: the games, which were one continuity until this Classic and Modern split occurred. Even with the split, they still keep tying the Classic 'world' into the Modern 'world', so why bother with a split if you're just going to keep bringing them together?
     
  11. Josh

    Josh

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    Yeah, Sonic Adventure feels transitional in a lot of ways. I think we can agree there! It wasn't until SA2 that I really started feeling like I couldn't reconcile one with the other anymore.

    And hey, "Maybe Sonic's eyes are green because of Chaos energy, as indicated by S3&K," was _exactly_ the idea I had when I was wrestling with this way back in the day. xD
    Mind you, the ultimate conclusion of that feature was that the universes WERE still too different to be considered the same thing, but I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one with the idea!
     
  12. Before Forces, I always just felt like Classic and Modern Sonic were the same character, just different art styles. I mean, it was different artists (Ohshima and Uekawa), but it was still identifiably the same characters we knew and loved. For me it wasn't like a Donkey Kong scenario, where the original and modern incarnations are explicitly stated to be different characters. They were just being drawn by a different artist. You don't consider Brian Bolland Batman and Jim Lee Batman different characters just because Bolland and Lee are different artists.

    Then Forces comes in with the whole "another dimension" thing and that really confused me. I mean, the most probable in-universe explanation is that the timeline split after Generations, but it was nonetheless jarring to suddenly be told that these two Sonics were not one and the same. Personally? I want to go back to a time when we saw them as one and the same. Of course, that's not going to happen. I think Sega should just make it explicit that Classic and Modern Sonic come from alternate timelines, or include alternate Sonics as skins in the next Sonic game.
     
  13. Josh

    Josh

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    I could definitely get behind this. If we're gonna throw "two dimensions" out the window and have Sonic just be Sonic, the worry is that whatever your preferred take on the character is might just cease to exist.

    One way around this is to just let us customize our Sonic in a similar way to Mario Odyssey or Spider-man. That way, we can focus on ONE style of gameplay for Sonic, and still appeal to fans across generations. We could also have obscure shoutouts like low-poly Saturn Sonic, Sonic wearing his "favorite clothes" from the OVA, maybe even American-boxart mohawk Sonic [with a brown backpack??], Riders Sonic, etc etc etc, the sky's the limit.
     
  14. Beltway

    Beltway

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    Eh, guess we'll disagree here. Colors made a point of establishing Planet Wisp as those species' homeworld and the game ended with them heading back home; I'm not a fan of them continuing to keep showing up in capsules / used as powerups in most of the games that have come afterwards. Eventually, someone at Sega gave a handwave that some of them liked Sonic's world enough to stay, but that has the same flaw as the "two worlds" bit in that it's a canon explanation that hasn't been actually supported within the games themselves. I'm not among those who considers it a massive deal, but I do feel it's an inconsistency that is worth criticizing.

    I think Zavok / the Deadly Six members have a somewhat similar problem, but they at least have the excuse that unlike the Wisps, Lost World's handling of them at the end of that game was rather inconclusive.
     
  15. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

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    But there's something good about every game, even Sonic 4. I always wondered why Eggman didn't try to take over little planet every time it appeared, and he did in Sonic 4, so that's one less plothole, ¿yes? But that also means a year has passed between Sonic CD and Sonic 4, so time actually passes... Then, is the birthday happening in Sonic Generations before or after Sonic 4? If it's after because Sonic 4 is supposed to hapen shortly after 3k and/or Mania, that means it's the second birthday making modern Sonic even older, allowing for Classic Sonic to grow and become Modern Sonic if they just retconned either Sonic's age a bit.

    Honestly, I'm not sure how "broken" the continuity in the games really is if every game fixes some stuff while breaking something else, but there's an easy excuse for a reboot: something goes wrong with the Phantom Ruby and everything changes forever into a new single timeline which can still make homages to old games by showing old stuff repurposed for the new continuity and inventing new past events like, for example, showing that Silver and Blaze were always from the same dimension as Sonic, or that Sonic, Shadow and Silver used to be rivals but took different paths in the past and now they'll meet again after a long time (sfx for Phantom Ruby plays now).
     
  16. Mario Odyssey was actually exactly what I was thinking of. I loved how you could mix and match pieces of different costumes and choose which Mario you wanted to play as. The Avatar customization in Forces already laid a good foundation to build upon; all they need is new parts and just Sonic. I’ve always imagined playing with some sort of wacky combination of parts, like ‘06 Sonic with the Werehog’s shoes, Knuckles’ hat, and Riders glasses.
     
  17. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    One month every year, so yeah, Sonic the Hedgehog 4 takes place a year after Sonic the Hedgehog CD, minimum. Which means Sonic's either 14 at the start of the series and 16 currently (Birthday in Sonic Generations) or 13 at the start and 15 currently.

    (This is also assuming Little Planet in Sonic Mania is simply a Ruby Illusion)

    This is why I'd just retcon his age when making Classic and Modern both the same world.
     
  18. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    In that case, my point stands exactly as written. In most cases in S3K these last a couple of seconds and occur a couple of times in the levels in question. They're a lot more frequent and lengthy in Mania.
     
  19. big smile

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    They had an episode in Sonic Runners, where the Wisps said in-game that they liked Sonic's world. Likewise, they had an episode in Sonic Runners, where they explained why the Deadly Six are still around (I can't remember it exactly, but I think they want to train to prove that they are more capable than Sonic). This was also the episode where Sonic reveals that he likes to play dumb when he sees someone he recognizes, so they will reintroduce themselves to him, which provides an out for whenever Sonic sees a character that he apparently doesn't remember.
     
  20. Sid Starkiller

    Sid Starkiller

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    To the Wisps, problem is they didn't SEE Sonic's World in Colors. All the amusement park planets were other worlds Eggman abducted. To the "playing dumb" thing, why don't they recognize him? Are they playing dumb too?

    Good old Sonic Team and their voodoo sharks.