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The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

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    The way I'd interpret this is that the Gun Commander was obfuscating on several levels.
    • He obviously knew all the details regarding Gerald, The ARK incident, Project Shadow, and so on. I suspect he was around 50 years ago, if not in the leadership role then somewhere near the top of the conspiracy since he's the one who redacted records.
    • The officers stationed at Level 7: ExplorationAX Development of Space of Prison Island (that's what it says on that giant door to Shadow's cryotube) know who and what Shadow is on some level. They send Hot Shot to try and contain him and Eggman and fail.
    • Suddenly The Commander has a breach at one of his highly secure facilities by Eggman, something that will not go unnoticed by the Government and the President. There's information that Eggman and a powerful Hedgehog escaped, so rather than expose the secret of The ARK Incident, he instead says that Eggman and Sonic infiltrated a secret government facility, destroyed a Guard Robot, and got away.
    • To maintain the cover story, he orders his agents in the field to locate and apprehend Sonic, using the excuse that he was a "deserter" (just as confused on this one). They clearly have no knowledge of Project Shadow and are just following orders to arrest Sonic.
    • He sends another team to track Shadow and they get a hot tip from Local Police that he just robbed a bank and is escaping across the Bridge. Both groups converge on Sonic after Big Foot is destroyed.
    • The Media clearly has no idea what's going on, all they have are some blurry shots of a speedy Hedgehog and they have to know that Police and GUN are already chasing Sonic. They have no idea that there are two teams from GUN completing different objectives, they're both chasing super sonic hedgehogs across the city. They make a logical leap that Sonic was the one who robbed the bank and is now resisting arrest.
    • Sonic believes (incorrectly) that the Military has mistakenly confused him for Shadow.
    • After Eggman's attack on and explosion of Prison Island they seem to be a consideration no longer, likely because they're in complete disarray between that and half of the moon being destroyed.
    Now, It makes sense, Sonic & Eggman are known enemies, Eggman infiltrating the Island would no doubt lead to Sonic being there, right? The President asks what they were doing there, The Commander finds some way to get around that question and now the President has many questions. Why was Eggman there? Why would Sonic destroy a GUN Robot if he was trying to stop Eggman? If he isn't stopping Eggman, why would Sonic work with Eggman to infiltrate a facility? What exactly is this Project Shadow he keeps seeing mentions of? It's pretty clear that something strange is going on because the Commander is acting highly irregularly and that he's stonewalling the administration on this matter. Sonic being a villain doesn't add up either given everything he's done.

    So the President decides that he needs an independent party to go in and investigate the matter. He chooses Rouge for some reason; perhaps she was called in as an expert on heists of this nature and she impressed him. Her mission is to find out what exactly Project Shadow is and why GUN is hiding it. She decides her best option is to get in with Eggman because he's the one who stole the information to begin with (Totally not because he has a radar that can track Master Emerald shards, cough cough).

    GUN, or at least parts of GUN who need to know, know that Sonic isn't responsible, he's just a public scapegoat to keep the heat off of them while they try to contain Shadow.
     
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  2. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    My friend checked: the word deserter is an error, it should be fugitive. They use the same root, so it's a very easy mistake to make.
    脱走兵 (dassouhei) = Deserter
    脱走者 (dassousha) = Escapee, Fugitive

    So they said Sonic is a fugitive, which matches everything else.
     
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  3. Linkabel

    Linkabel

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    Well that makes sense. I did check some of the translations fans have made online and they all used deserter during the first Sonic recap.

    But I can see why it would be an easy mistake to fall into.

    It at least clears up that angle more.
     
  4. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Indeed.

    I might compile a timeline of events for G.U.N. in Sonic Adventure 2, see if we can puzzle this entire thing out.
     
  5. I do think this is the gist of it, well done.

    There’s some ambiguity about when Rouge’s facedown with Knuckles near the Pyramid Base takes place, since its cutscene plays either before or after Sonic’s capture depending on the Story. Rouge has presumably already been assigned her mission in that cutscene (hence her being in the proximity of the base, and her placing a tracker on the Egg Mobile per the Egg Quarters recap), so if it takes place the morning of Sonic’s capture, the President must have reached out to her almost immediately after Eggman’s first invasion of Prison Island.
     
  6. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

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    It would seem that the Master Emerald Shattering occurred the same day as City Escape. Eggman is heading back to his base (and makes it back at night? That part's kinda weird) which is when he sees the news broadcast on Shadow. Considering she follows Eggman inside, I imagine Rogue was hired shortly before she made her little detour.
     
  7. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Yeah, the Dark Story version makes more sense, since otherwise Robotnik went from the desert to his secret base to Prison Island in about 5 minutes:

    11:08 - Knuckles/Rouge cutscene.
    11:13 - Robotnik, Shadow and Rouge assault Prison Island.
    11:56 - Tails goes to Prison Island, sees Robotnik harassing Amy, intervenes.

    I get transporters are a thing, but even then...

    For why he took until night to actually enter the base (the cutscene for entering it takes place at 20:22, a good nine hours later), considering the G.U.N. flags kicking about, perhaps we missed a G.U.N. Base raid that he was dealing with and only see the mop-up? Nothing is said in the Summaries, I'm afraid.
     
  8. I’m also of the opinion that the Dark Story order works better, though I think the Hero Story alternative is that City Escape/Sand Ocean/Radical Highway are one day, then Dry Lagoon/Egg Quarters/Lost Colony on the next day, and then the second Prison Island raid on the third day. The Dark Story keeps things more compact and reduces the number of days where Sonic is doing nothing in captivity, among other benefits.
     
  9. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    I did a thing where I went through the mainline games and found how long they take. Lost the file where I counted the days, though, so might go through and double check my maths:

     
  10. Linkabel

    Linkabel

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    Yeah, that's why I believe there's something political going on with GUN in the game to justify their actions.

    I'm on the side that GUN (or at least someone or a small group within it) is intentionally framing Sonic.

    This makes me wonder if that secret group within GUN from Sonic X might have been one of the elements cut from the game, especially considering the limited development time and resources, along with the way the story was told, which likely didn't allow for its inclusion.

    This is another thing that stands out to me about the game. I always thought Rouge somehow made it to Angel Island, stole the Master Emerald, left the island, and then Knuckles caught up to her.

    But I've always wondered—was the area where the Knuckles, Rouge, and Eggman levels take place supposed to be a grounded Angel Island, or perhaps a piece of the continent where the echidnas once lived?

    It feels similar to the Mystic Ruins near Station Square—or maybe even part of the same location, just seen from another angle and the ruins being Egyptian influenced.

    The ruins themselves are an unusual mix of echidna, human, and Chao imagery. Eggman’s base, in particular, looks like ancient ruins that were modified to display his face everywhere.

    Then there’s the whole ghost theme in Knuckles’ levels. It was an intriguing choice for those stages, but it makes me wonder why they went in that direction and whether it was meant to play a larger role in the story.
     
  11. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Knuckles mentions in the summaries the Master Emerald was stolen "from Angel Island", so they're off the island. Considering the Pumpkin Hill/Mines seem to connect to the sewers beneath the capital city...
     
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  12. Linkabel

    Linkabel

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    Ah I see. I still find it interesting that there was still some echidna remnants in that location. I wonder if Angel Island was close by off the map.
     
  13. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Possibly, but the Echidna did inhabit the continent before Perfect Chaos wiped them out, so I assume it was just more of them there and Humans just kinda moved in if they weren't there already, if Sandopolis is any indicator...
     
  14. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    In sum, SA2 is rife with plotholes and plot contraints for the sake of drama and progression (maybe moreso than SA1, IMHO).
    But even if somehow a new version of SA2 were to ever happen, it'd be tough to smooth things out... (because Shadow05 :V)
     
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  15. Blue Spikeball

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    I doubt humans had the technology to reach Angel Island during the time of ancient pyramids. The Sandopolis pyramid probably predates Angel Island's creation (and might already have been abandoned by that point).
     
  16. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Right, went through for the timeframes given: I've assumed Knuckles is before Sonic in the Hero story, simply because it makes the most sense timeframe-wise and is likely just a leftover hiccup from merging Sonic and Knuckles' stories into the Hero story.

    upload_2024-12-28_13-52-0.png

    The times with "TRBESCB" and "TRBECFA" are extrapolated from the 24 hour countdown, which starts around 18:00 the
    previous day, while Prison Island is based around the whole "15 minute bomb" thing. Also, Amy sneaks in while Rouge is stealing Chaos Emeralds, interesting...

    So from this, the timeline of events on G.U.N.'s side are:

    Sonic the Hedgehog (Mega Drive) - Sonic Adventure Events, which are well known to the public.

    Night Prior

    Approx. 21:02:
    During Robotnik's Raid on Prison Island, Scorpion Platoon 'Hot Shot' reports "Awakening of rogue element in classified area confirmed" to his operator before Hot Shot is destroyed.

    Day 1

    Before 13:27:
    G.U.N. approach and arrest Sonic, claiming him to be a fugitive from a military facility, despite being active before the awakening.

    13:27:
    Sonic escapes G.U.N. custody and spends over seven hours fleeing the military.

    20:22
    Robotnik "cleans up the military mess" as he enters his base.

    20:31:
    Breaking news: there is suspicion that Sonic has just hit the Government-run Federal Bank and stolen a Chaos Emerald.

    21:09:
    G.U.N.'s forces are split between Sonic and Shadow, with Spider Platoon Big Foot fighting Sonic for three minutes while Shadow avoids several jet fighters attempting to hit him with missiles.
    Sonic and Shadow cross paths, where Sonic is recaptured by G.U.N. and imprisoned on Prison Island.

    Day 2

    Before 11:13
    Instead of putting Sonic into Shadow's Cryo-Tube, they lock him in Gerald's Prison Cell.

    11:13:
    Shadow, Rouge and Robotnik begin a three-way assault on Prison Island, with Robotnik causing a distraction as Rouge slips in to collect the Chaos Emeralds, while Shadow sets a bomb to destroy Prison Island.

    11:56:
    Amy encounters Shadow, Rouge and Robotnik on the Weapons Bed
    Tails arrives over Prison Island and saves Amy from Robotnik.

    12:00:
    Rouge slips into the G.U.N. vault to collect the Chaos Emeralds 'before the military gets wind of you!'
    Amy, at the same time, slips in to free Sonic from Gerald's cell. Sonic immediately leaves.

    Before 12:06:
    Flying Dog encounters Rouge while she is "doing some minor business" after collecting the Chaos Emeralds and fights her: Flying Dog orders the Security Hall sealed.

    12:06:
    Shadow beelines to Rouge with 9:50~ left on the bomb.

    Before 12:07:
    G.U.N. fires a missile at something, which Sonic rides up with during his escape.

    12:15:
    Prison Island is destroyed by Robotnik's bomb.

    18:00:
    The cops find Sonic, Tails and Amy and pursue Sonic. G.U.N. engage Tails as he flees with fighter jets and robots.

    Day 3

    12:15:
    G.U.N. robots in the Pumpkin Hill range attack Shadow as he pursues Tails.

    13:04:
    G.U.N. robots assault Tails and Sonic as they assault Robotnik's Hidden Base.

    G.U.N. kinda drop out of the story after Prison Island, which tracks since they did just get a major base blown up. They only show up in levels as opponents, with the only story instance being police (Sonic calls them cops, not military) spotting the group and attempting an arrest.

    Never said they did: Angel Island went skyborne around 3000 years ago. Humanity, if following our timeline of events, would be in the Iron Age. But Humans pop up in a few of the Egyptian-style Echidna markings and statues, suggesting Humans and Echidna had an actually decent relationship before Perfect Chaos:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  17. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

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    Changing topic slightly but still relevant, how exactly did Eggman save Shadow with one of his robots? Just to recap those events:

    • Sonic & Shadow are fighting the Final Hazard with the rest of the team on radio. They seem to be able to view at least some of what's going on.
    • Shadow, being as he's inexperienced with Super forms, is having trouble maintaining it while they fight.
    • Presumably, the fight takes course over a period of 4 minutes based on dialogue and the scene directly after.
    • Sonic begins to notice Shadow weakening (I guess while they swap out to collect rings, unless rings are still considered a gameplay element only)
    • They beat the giant space lizard, and use their combined powers to Chaos Control the ARK back into orbit
    • Due to the exertion, Shadow can't maintain his super form and falls to Earth, seemingly "Disappearing" in a flash of light like Sonic suggested would happen. We really know that Eggman sent a robot to catch him as he was falling and that he was taken to some base to recover.
    • Eggman feigns ignorance to the fact that Shadow is alive while everyone grieves his loss, instead, he focuses on digesting that his Grandfather attempted genocide from beyond the grave.
    So my question is, how did Eggman manage to send a robot into orbit to rescue Shadow and when? One could assume they all heard the exchange over the radio between Sonic and Shadow since they both had to have had radios (otherwise, how would they hear the rest of the gang cheering them on?). But at the point where Sonic first mentions it, there's maybe two minutes until atmospheric entry which we know is when Chaos Control happens. Even for the good doctor, that's not a lot of time to send a robot (presumably a unique one since those robots aren't exactly that durable) into a fail-safe position to prevent Shadow from burning up on reentry.
     
  18. MykonosFan

    MykonosFan

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    I guess we'd have to get into the weeds of particulars. I'm fuzzy on the post-SA2 Shadow lore at this point, but going to the Devil Doom fight Eggman only mentions rescuing Shadow with one of his robots. It doesn't specify that it was during the fall. He could have landed and been retrieved from there. From that lens it could have been a few days or so, which is more reasonable. It's dumb, but given how many times we've seen characters fall from ridiculous heights in this series it is at least in line with other events.

    Now, if there's something out there where Eggman explicitly says it was during the fall...phew...
     
  19. Linkabel

    Linkabel

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    Not sure what's on the Japanese script, but the English dialogue doesn't really specify how exactly the robot saved Shadow.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    It makes sense to think that the robot got to him somewhere along the way during the fall.

    But then, what caused Shadow's memory loss? Did the Buzz Bomber—or whatever robot caught him—hit him on the head?

    Or did the transformation, combined with the fight, have a blowback effect on his memory? Gerald did mess with his head, so could it have been a combination of those three things?

    Honestly, I thought the robot just found him before he died and took him to get medical help. But he did crash into Earth and managed to survive.

    He’s still in his Super form as we see him fall, so maybe somewhere closer to Earth, he lost the transformation and then hit the ground, causing his memory loss.

    It’s sort of like how Sonic fell back to Earth during the Frontiers ending.
     
  20. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    The franchise has precedence of that. In the Sonic X Metarex saga Sonic loses his Super form in space, falls back to the planet (landing on the sea IIRC), and is afterward retrieved by Eggman and healed.