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The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Which is partially why I'm saying they can just do it in spinoffs and auxiliary media if they want to. The ratio of modern to classic in IDW is already effectively 12:1 so it'd be nice to see modern versions of the characters again to give them more appearances, and modern versions in, say, a new Sonic Riders or Racing game would be a way to rep that era without having to come up with silly explanations as to why these pint-sized versions are crossing over - Mighty and Ray are travelling the world, but competing in an extreme gear contest sounds fun and oh hey there are those folks they haven't seen in a while!
     
  2. raphael_fc

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    I'm not sure if people would be satisfied in seeing modern Mighty and Ray appearing in a racing game instead of a regular mainline game.

    Even so, the racing games should have every possible character, including their classic versions. If this somehow is not doable due to canon, just ignore the canon. It's a racing game.
     
  3. shilz

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    Of course I don't want to see them in a racing game.

    I want to see them in a Smash clone
     
  4. JarshR

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    Didn't Maekawa only really start as a Sonic writer with SA2? I could be wrong but I thought SA1 had a different writer, Nishiyama. Not that I disagree with the overall notion that Maekawa cares about consistency.
     
  5. Levi Church

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    Classic Vector just had a cameo in the Amy special.
     
  6. Blue Spikeball

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    I think you misread my post. The examples I mentioned were about SA2.
     
  7. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Not really sure that counts. I didn’t even know he was there until it was pointed out to me because he’s so obscured. I think Aaron Hammerstrom just snuck him in under the radar.
     
  8. Plorpus

    Plorpus

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    Right, but what you were originally responding to wasn’t about SA1 at all, it was about Maekawa not considering the classic games. He worked on SA1, of course he’s gonna keep it in mind when writing its sequel.
     
  9. Blue Spikeball

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    That still doesn't mean that he ignored the classic games. He was still working on a Sonic game. When a writer is assigned to a sequel, it's common for them to research its prequels, even if they're not fans of them. For example, the writers of Beast Wars and Beast Machines were weren't Transformers fans, but they still researched prior works and directly referenced them.

    As you said, Maekawa was part of the team that worked on SA1 (even if he wasn't the writer), which was written as a direct sequel to the classic games and had plenty of references to them. He likely knew the classic lore at least to some degree. Especially stuff related to Angel Island, seeing how SA1's plot was based on and expanded on its lore.
     
  10. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

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    Maekawa didn't "ignore" the classic games in that he didn't contradict them, but being able to acknowledge something descended from them isn't really the same as writing a story within the vein of those games or dealing with anything in particular that mattered from them. Gerald, GUN, Maria, none of that is particularly dependent on the Genesis games or their storytelling to function. It's only connected via Eggman and some magic rocks, but if that's all it takes, then nothing could really "ignore the classic games". You're looking at the literal definition of what's being said without the shape of the argument. SA1 is a logical continuation of what Sonic 3 built, which is a direct followup to the way Sonic 1 and 2 handled things. SA2 is, by most accounts, a departure. It has some connections, but largely it is a shift in direction with no particular justification beyond the team doing what they wanted at that particular time.
     
  11. Blue Spikeball

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    I'm not arguing against that. SA2 was a clear departure from previous games story-wise.

    But despite that, Maekawa still referenced more traditional Sonic elements when he didn't have to.

    He didn't have to add a replica of the emerald altar to the ARK, or design the area around said replica altar with obvious echidna-esque architecture. It's clear he wasn't above referencing prior games.

    The ARK itself was even inspired by the Death Egg. The final battle was inspired by The Doomsday Zone. That's two classic elements that weren't in SA1 and still got homaged by SA2.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2023
  12. The KKM

    The KKM

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    the point is that for all you can point out "it referenced past games", as far as the echidna stuff goes, the "past games" are all SA1. SA2 repeatedly over and over only references SA1 to the point you could believe it to be a reboot.
     
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  13. Blue Spikeball

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    Last I checked, the Death Egg and The Doomsday Zone weren't in SA1.
     
  14. The KKM

    The KKM

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    And last I checked, neither were elements about echidnas.

    EDIT: I also question how much there actually are references to the Death Egg and Doomsday Zone in the first place. The ARK might feel an obvious Death Egg take, but it's also an easy design to arrive to independently- you want to make a big spectacle like something out of an Emmerich movie, you want a Gundam-esque space colony, you want it to relate to Eggman, a cannon that opens to an Eggman face is an obvious point to reach to; and how much does the final boss really connect to Doomsday beyond being in space (which the story was already set in anyway, and we know the actual stated inspirations would've led there anyway) and the gameplay element of "hit thing, be bounced back, dodge laser" (did Maekawa even determine gameplay?)

    Mind, I think it's stretching it a bit to make it so there's no connection at all, I doubt no one on the team remembered the Death Egg, just want to point out that the connection is probably not as strong and direct as you're making it, especially in the context of, again, everything else in the game except for a bonus level not connecting to the classics overall.

    EDIT EDIT: Offering on the other hand that with the context of the Sonic 3 concept arts we now have thanks to Origins, I do think that if not Maekawa, at least Iizuka and Hoshino were intentionally trying to do some of those og Sonic 3 concepts but fully realised. Shadow very much feels like a more direct finish to the concept rival Sonic sketches in those concept arts, the Biolizard can be seen as a version of the space dragon boss, etc.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2023
  15. Is there any evidence suggesting the ARK is directly inspired by those things, other than the fact that they’re all in space? Otherwise there just seems to be a shared level aesthetic, the levels having as much to do with each other as Hydrocity and Tidal Tempest.
     
  16. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    The point is that Maekawa has a precedence of referencing or homaging classic elements. The argument that he only referenced SA1 doesn't hold.

    The fact both the Death Egg and the ARK have a "Death Star parody that resembles Eggman's face and moustache" aesthetic.
    upload_2023-10-14_18-6-21.png

    Granted, it's not the exact same design. Otherwise it would be called the Death Egg, rather than the ARK. But the similarities are clear.
     
  17. The KKM

    The KKM

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    But does he? Even if you're right, your "precedence" is two instances amidst a ton more that don't. And we don't know you're right! Even beyond what me and AdmiralSalt pointed out that "space colony that shoots laser and relates to Eggman" will just look similar to the Death Egg anyway even if unintentionally; even if we assume they made it look similar on purpose; do we know Maekawa asked for it? He loves Shadow, but Hoshino was the one designing him. We know Maekawa wanted a space colony, we know what he was inspired by. Do we know he said "also make the space colony look like the Death Egg from those games I've stated I don't really care about"? Is he the concept artist for the game too?
     
  18. kazz

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    I think it's more likely the ARK's design is at least partially based off the Death Egg, rather than Maekawa just coincidentally coming to such an extremely similar-looking idea. Crazy Gadget reuses mechanics from S&K's Death Egg Zone too. Not that it even matters canonically lol.
     
  19. The KKM

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    I already said that it's a stretch to say there's no connection outright, yeah- someone on Sonic Team would've remembered the Death Egg exists. Note the sentence though- "someone on Sonic Team". Maekawa didn't create the entirety of Sonic Adventure 2 alone. Did he specifically ask for a Death Egg reference, or did he write a story set in an ancient space colony and a setpiece with an Independence Day laser, and someone else went "oh let's make it look like the Death Egg somewhat, and reuse some of its mechanics"?
     
  20. Blue Spikeball

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    So we need to meet a quota number of references for you to accept that SA2 has referenced the classic games? I'd think a single reference would be enough, let alone two.

    Really now, dude? Even if we ignore that "Death Star-esque space colony resembling Eggman's face" is a rather specific concept, why on earth would they make the ARK resemble his face if not to reference the Death Egg? It wasn't created by Eggman.

    I mean, by the same logic, you could say "Do we know if it was Maekawa that decided to make Shadow look like a hedgehog? It could have been the concept artist's idea for all we know!"

    Also, are you also going to propose that it was artist that came up with the concept of the final battle being set with Super Sonic in space ala The Doomsday Zone?