don't click here

The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. David The Lurker

    David The Lurker

    For some mysterious reason... Administrator
    390
    221
    43
    Ok, maybe it's time for you take a break from this thread, BlackHole.
     
  2. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

    Professional Internet asshole Member
    2,154
    1,164
    93
    OR
    I think these kinds of debates lead us in unhealthy directions sometimes. Archival of what is and isn't true for a product is good, and it's good to acknowledge when there's a contradiction. But the disconnect is that Sonic has more contradictions than rings, so each person's idea of what is true is often the result of value judgements, where you can't form a 100% accurate picture with just the series itself. And, well...I don't think everyone is totally honest about that. Sonic's not a riddle to be solved, it's art made by humans, and humans are flawed, most especially people claiming their interpretation of that art is more correct than others. I am, on some level, saying the Mural Theory is based on motivated reasoning, but that's okay! Motivated reasoning is what lets us ignore 06's garbage, because the blue chaos emerald being held by Elise for ten years is dumber than it being a recurring part of the rest of the series up to that point. I'd much rather look at what the Mural Theory could mean than spend hours speculating potential plot justifications in a series where the plot is already plastic.

    If we say Shadow is based on the mural, we would be casting him as, in some respect, a copy of Sonic. This can be frustrating, because a lot of stories like Shadow's are based on the idea of pushing back on "being a copy". To make it textual would validate a lot of that language. It would also be pushing further into the idea that Sonic and Shadow actually are visually similar, which they just...aren't. I always liked the idea that GUN is framing Sonic to cover their asses, which makes Amy genuinely confusing the two of them not a continuation of a baffling trend, but a joke that's almost clever under this context. Her mistaking the even less-similar Silver for him in 06 would feel more like a continuation of a running gag at that point.

    However, Shadow's arc also (in my opinion more heavily) deals with him being controlled by the machinations of Gerald, someone who (at least in the context of SA2) seems completely self-interested, only viewing Shadow as a means to an end. Sid brought up in our SA2 video that Shadow's death in the final story is because he's incomplete. He died because Super Shadow used so much power it destroyed his body, that's why Sonic didn't stop him from falling to Earth. His arc concludes with him pushing past Gerald's programming, and admitting he's not the ultimate life form is part of that. Him being an imitation of another culture's messiah adds somewhat to this symbolism, because he decided to go out a hero regardless (it's also one reason I'm kinda-maybe-sorta okay with restricting non-Sonic Super forms). I've always kinda hated the whole "are there two Shadows" thing, because the speculation on it ignores that both Sonic and Shadow spell out the meaning: it does not matter if he's the "real" Shadow! He is who he is, we are our choices.

    Yes, I am essentially having a debate with myself here, but this self-indulgence is what I think a lot of people actually want here. This is "The Sonic continuity thread", but just like Sonic Team themselves, it has less to do with what's textually true and more about how we'd like the series to present, what it means to us and why we value the parts we do. I think this thread has kinda outgrown the idea of pure fact-checking and what's textual, and a lot of the language of "canon" has instead been used to replace strong reasoning for why a given part of the series should look a certain way, which sucks. It might be better to shift this thread more to a sort of clinical "what is and is not explicitly stated" or "what has most recently been stated on official channels to be true", and direct a lot of the actual storytelling judgements to another thread.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  3. Plorpus

    Plorpus

    Hog Blue So What Member
    982
    270
    63
    (I’m a bit late with these but had the reply open in my tabs for a while, my apologies)

    It could have included anything. It could also have included nothing. The burden of proof for all of this stuff is on you.
    Source?
    Again, source? It makes sense but was that ever actually stated anywhere?

    You seem to have mixed up what’s actually shown and said with your own stretches and conclusions. There is a headcanon thread here you might be more interested in.
     
  4. kazz

    kazz

    16-bait Member
    496
    228
    43
    Sonic & Knuckles. It's the only reason I can discern that the mural's even in the game. And is a stroke of brilliance because of how it gets you to sympathize with Knuckles at the same moment you have to fight him. Not to mention the dragon egg prophecy in the JP manual reinforcing Eggman's lie to Knuckles in that case. This might stupidly not be canon but I think it's disingenuous to call it a stretch.
    https://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_Adventure
    I really like this Sid guy's idea where Super Shadow pushed past his limits during that final Chaos Control. But is that canon? I don't think so. Makes sense though! And fills in plot weirdness that ST wasn't willing to fill in themselves. Does Shaddy's friend's idea only count as his own silly little stretched conclusion even when it helps Shadow's death make more sense to me? I don't think so. Agree though that this kind of thing probably needs its own thread if not just for argument containment, but the point is I think it has its place.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2023
  5. BenoitRen

    BenoitRen

    Tech Member
    468
    205
    43

    It's troubling that the Story section doesn't make reference to any sources.
    In Sonic X, Shadow removes the inhibitor rings from his wrists before the final assault. This suggests that the idea has some legitimacy.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  6. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    Member
    2,380
    981
    93
    There is clear Sonic imagery in the statues in the background of Hydrocity, which is in Angel Island. We know that Gerald studied Angel Island and its civilization, what with the ARK having the emerald altar replica, the Lost World-esque arquitecture near it, the Artificial Chaos, and the reveals in Sonic Battle. It's easy to imagine that he would have known about the Sonic imagery in areas like Hydrocity and used it as an inspiration.

    There is also the fact the prototype of the Ultimate Lifeform is a giant lizard, which might have been inspired by the murals of the draconic Perfect Chaos.

    And Shiro Maekawa might not have been a fan of previous games, but that doesn't mean he ignored them. Not only did he write the characters consistently with SA1, but he referenced Tails saving Station Square, and included the Angel Island elements mentioned above.

    I don't have a link, but the tablets thing comes from old Japanese material. I believe it's in Vertekins' or Windii's blogs somewhere.
     
  7. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

    Professional Internet asshole Member
    2,154
    1,164
    93
    OR
    New Tailstube video


    Huh. Did we not have a thread just for these?

    EDIT: also it's hilarious to watch these losers go through a nostalgia trip in-character and act like they're not part of a series completely drunk off nostalgia
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2023
  8. Starduster

    Starduster

    Can bench press at least two Sonic the Hedgehogs Member
    2,007
    1,207
    93
    Britain
    Fighting my procrastination addiction
    So Mighty’s off travelling the world. Honestly pretty expected. This undeniably, irrefutably joins together the whole series into one timeline as once was, so I’m really hoping it opens the door for Mighty, Fang etc. to have modern incarnations pop up now and then, even if only in the comics and spinoffs to continue the brand divide of classic and modern in the mainline games.
     
  9. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

    Professional Internet asshole Member
    2,154
    1,164
    93
    OR
    Give me my fucking cat back SEGA
    upload_2023-10-10_9-43-34.png
    You can't just drop the most "no thoughts head empty" character design in the world and expect me to ignore it for thirty years
     
  10. Only for viewing

    Only for viewing

    aka Superstarxalien Member
    189
    55
    28
    which is a problem because the exact purpose of the classic and modern split is so they don't have to bring back mighty into modern sonic...
     
  11. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

    Professional Internet asshole Member
    2,154
    1,164
    93
    OR
    Not really? The purpose of the classic and modern split was for branding. A classic Sonic product has an aesthetic and tone that modern Sonic doesn't, so it makes sense to market these products differently. If this video is an indication that classic characters may be able to appear in the modern content (and vice-versa, in the case of the Chaotix), that would only conflict with the branding if they literally mixed the classic characters in instead of just each character having a classic version and a modern one.
     
  12. There's nothing stopping them from just keeping Mighty in Classic only games.

    But it kind of asinine how they basically gated certain characters off for... no real reason to be honest beyond branding.
     
  13. MastaSys

    MastaSys

    Member
    685
    51
    28
    Nah, screw splits. Multiple canons and multiverses are overrated, and bad excuses for mismanagement, just a bit better than reboots.

    Sonic's might be after the fact and a bit wonky, but it's on a good path in my opinion (regarding world building)

    And if this helps the writers convince the powers above regarding classic characters on modern settings (and the "reverse" regarding Chaotix) I'm all for it.
     
  14. My major takeaways from the latest TailsTube:

    1. We’ve been told the events of Chaotix are canon, but I believe this is the first explicit in-universe reference to it since… well, Chaotix.

    2. Sonic quips that Knuckles willingly worked with Eggman “like three times”, as footage of Sonic 3, Triple Trouble and Adventure play. It’s interesting that SA1 is included, as Knuckles being fooled into attacking Sonic wasn’t really a knowing act of complicity with Eggman. Knuckles’ boss fight in Advance 2 piloting Eggman’s mech probably fits the criteria better, though it’s more obscure than Adventure.

    3. Amy refers to Fang’s gang as footage of Bark and Bean appear behind her. The three have worked together in Archie and IDW, but this further solidifies the canonicity of the Hooligans as a unit, even if that team name is not specifically referenced.

    4. Tails’ house from Battle is shown onscreen as Knuckles exclaims “party at Tails’ place!”, seemingly confirming the broadcast location of TailsTube (was this shown in a previous ep?).

    5. As the characters walk away and Sonic remarks that the anniversary of the events of Superstars is coming up, Amy can be heard asking, “I wonder if we can invite…”. Given Trip’s pacifistic demeanor and apparently unwillingness to work with Eggman and Fang as seen in the prerelease materials for Superstars, I have to imagine she will befriend Sonic and defect to his side over the course of the game.

    6. There are a lot of Easter eggs visible in the background of Tails’ shop.
    IMG_0091.jpeg
    More eagle eyed users may identify more I can (particularly what’s on the screen to the left, and the contraptions on the top shelf center right) but I noticed:
    • The emerald detector from Sonic Runners
    • Blueprints for the Cyclone(?)
    • A wrench that appears to be based on the item from Tails Adventure
      IMG_0091.jpeg IMG_0092.jpeg
    • A Greg Martin style doodle of Sonic
    • Tails’ Extreme Gear
    • A bag of peppermints
    • The Rhythm Badge from SA1
    • Cosmo?!
      IMG_0093.jpeg IMG_0094.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2023
  15. Only for viewing

    Only for viewing

    aka Superstarxalien Member
    189
    55
    28
    of course, and this is what they'll continue to do for the foreseeable future in all likelihood.
    so the fact this video was made is like... what. cuz now every sonic fan (for what that's worth, very little in my opinion but something I'll definitely see echoed in my circles) is getting the notion that these characters are totally in the "modern sonic universe" and therefore usable in the "modern sonic brand" and so they're gonna keep asking for modern mighty and what not. they're being misleading with what their actual intentions for those characters are sorta
     
  16. kazz

    kazz

    16-bait Member
    496
    228
    43
    I kinda hate Tails' face house. Why can't he live in the comfy oceanside cottages he has in Tails Adventures and SA1?
     
  17. technicalityiskey

    technicalityiskey

    Member
    7
    0
    1
    I agree completely, outside of places like twitter (terrible popularity metrik) no one seems to have a problem with this. It makes perfect sense
     
  18. MastaSys

    MastaSys

    Member
    685
    51
    28
    Esteemed Science gentlemen use their faces as their abodes, it's the law.
     
  19. There's nothing stopping them from introducing Mighty and etc to the modern universe as well and I'm sure this video was made with express purpose of opening that possibility.


    Gating both off from each other never made much sense to me.
     
  20. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

    SAY HELLO TO MY CHOCOLATE BLEND Member
    3,005
    2,635
    93
    I really liked that Tails Tube episode, nice to know that Mighty and Ray exist in the modern continuity. Wonder if we'll ever see them again...
    [​IMG]