Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.
Weird. Here's the Bumblekast directly:
Might be a definitive way to approach Shadow after those hiccups in the last 10 years.
Spoiler: Nothing to do with it
(Is it only here or the General Sonic Discussion page is showing only 5 threads per page?)
I think your suggestion that there’s something going on with Shadow’s memories is misleading given Ian didn’t really say that, but I really do hope we’re getting an actual story to address this. Not some comment in a TailsTube episode or some not-very-accessible-to-English-audiences Sonic Channel story, I want an honest to god comic story or Divergence-esque short that explores the fact that, yes, Shadow has changed and not for the better, as well as what he intends to do about it. Sonic Frontiers did this well enough with Tails. People rag on it a bit and saying he and Knuckles should’ve just been glossed over with regards to their more contentious aspects of recent years, but I have much more respect for them actually addressing it and saying “yeah, we hear you and we’re gonna admit we put our foot wrong”.
making direct story writing about metaliterary elements like fan reaction or criticism from certain groups is something that needs to be super measured. you might respect them addressing something directly in a story, but in the long term most anyone would prefer it just be a fun story, not a story that stops itself to go "now, we've had some criticisms we need to address". frontiers should basically be the "ok we'll forgive the approach for now because it was arguably needed but let's not do it again", not something to be encouraged.
Question: (Copied from pinned comment)
Ian: That is a very good question. It is very valid. And I can not talk about it right now.
Kyle: Well, I guess this is the situation we're in.
Ian: And that-that-that that is not a hand wave. There is very legitimately other stuff that plays into this and I cannot get into just yet. So hold your horses.
Kyle: Is this a hashtag knowing look moment? Like, maybe not a smile, but a -
Ian: This is a hashtag knowing smile combo.
Assumedly that last part means there are Two things that he can't show us. So we can confirm he's not Simpleflips.
The problem with Frontiers'/Flynn's way of addressing it is that it treats Tails cowering from a fight as "inconsistent" and makes Tails say as much, when previously he's only believed he can do anything Sonic can do, and the last time he saw Sonic in Forces, he was fucking destroyed by Infinite. Tails fans wanted a scene like (real) Shadow's introduction, where he comes in and kicks the Phantom Shadow's ass, when that would have actually been so out of character for Tails. Instead of just making it be actual developments with his character (like saying "I've never dealt with threats I thought you couldn't face, in a world where a madman can come out of nowhere, what good am I?", you know, feeling inferior.) they make him come off as kind of overly angtsy and self-critical instead of self-reflective, which we've NEVER seen or heard him do. It's just such a surface level reading of the character, but people say it's course correction and that Ian totally came up with the idea on his own and it's the best way they could've handled it if they were going to address it when it's the worst.
Meanwhile the biggest problems with Shadow from his re-introduction in Boom to Team Sonic Racing is the fact that he has nothing to fight for (Because humanity is absent when they're Shadow's whole basis as character) and his "I work alone" attitude and the constant insistence on seriously proving himself more capable / of taking out threats than Sonic when that's one of the last things he should be serious about, unless it's the only path forward (which is why people are receptive to his bits in Prime's second part but not his bits in the first). The only possible justification is being a more lighthearted story, but Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric wasn't trying to be that (even with the comedy rewrites) and even then the angle there would have it be a dick-measuring contest neither of them take too seriously, because Sonic doesn't really care and Shadow is cocky enough to never question his ability (aside from the one line in SA2 during Finalhazard that Shadow wouldn't remember) but Shadow is never in on this. That's where he starts to become Vegeta litterally instead of figuratively, because Vegeta is serious about surpassing Goku.
There's just so much more to clean up with Shadow to the point where he pretty much needs his own game to do it, but I don't know that that's possible with the people they have right now because they're responsible for "Cowards run, I win" and keep trying to make Tails a badass.
I'll just say that if they're going to do it again they might as well do it right after Frontiers so they can be complimentary pieces of the puzzle. Superstars aside, that seems to be what they're doing if the things Flynn is tailking about are as significant and soon as his secrecy would suggest.
@shilz I don’t think it’s a bad reading of Tails because Tails wasn’t facing Infinite, he was facing, for all intents and purposes, Chaos 0. Tails has fought and beaten Chaos 4. He has his big moment in Adventure 2 when he decided to step up not just because it was absolutely necessary, as it was when he defended Station Square from Eggman in Adventure, but because he had found the confidence too, because “for the first time” Sonic asked him to do something. He had placed his trust in Tails.
And sure, I think there’s a reasonable argument to make that Tails was at a low in Forces during that six month timeskip, but it isn’t just about Forces. Tails was cowering from Dark Gaia spawn in Unleashed, he was a glorified translator in Colours. The issue isn’t just one bad moment, but that, up until Frontiers, Tails had been super passive in the games for *14 years*. Granted, being sidelined is a complaint that can be applied to almost the entire supporting cast, but I don’t think any of them (except Shadow and Knuckles) has gone through as much of a character assassination.
Sonic himself hasn't exactly been very consistent the past two decades either, honestly. In 06 and Unleashed he felt more like a generic shoujo hero, in Black Knight he felt like Sonic again, and from Colors up to Forces... well, you already know what happened there. The biggest reason the supporting cast hasn't undergone similar feats if out of character writing is because they've been incredibly underutilized.
I see no problem with Tails in Colors. He did what he had to do, and that was something Sonic could not do. Tails doesn't need to always destroy robots to be useful. There was no cowardice in it.
It was like his participation in Sonic Rush. Both games didn't need him to help Sonic in combat.
The problem is more in Forces than anything. Even Unleashed, when he was kinda coward, you could argue he was surrounded by weird dark monster he had never seen before.
What Sonic feels like is such an incredibly subjective subject that will be given a different answer from each fan or writer. I think Sonic and Tails feel like Sonic and Tails in Colors-Forces. Others do not. It is all fine in my opinion. It is impossible for one group to all agree on a correct course for these characters that feels natural to every fan. I do agree that Tails did become less heroic overtime and Frontiers was in the right to address it with the player. It is also a very minor moment in the game that didn't take away much at all from the main plot of gathering the Chaos Emeralds to save everyone from Cyber Space.
TBH Tails' passive role in Colors was the least of the problems with his characterization there.
I don’t have a particular problem with Tails in Colours if I’m being honest (except for the lack of a unique boss fight when he gets kind controlled and the fact he just gets shoved in an elevator at the end), but his role there does represent a trend that’s been going since Unleashed.
My problem with Tails in Colors is that his snarkiness came out of nowhere, and his attitude toward Sonic felt like a 180º from before. Sonic and Tails' relationship had never been depicted like that before. Their relationship is supposed to be more of a cool big brother and his little brother that looks up to him, not two snarky bros constantly making jabs at each other.
Part of growing up is making jabs at your older brother from my experience.
Eehh, I find it hard to see it as character development when it came out of the blue. In the previous game (Unleashed), Sonic and Tails had the same dynamic as always. Then Colors happened and all of a sudden Tails was snarking and making jabs at his idol.
Not to say that Unleashed did Tails justice. As people mentioned, that was when his yellow streak began.
It’s kind of a cultural (and maybe generational?) thing. The sort of sassy dialogue is Pontac and Graff trying to show Sonic and Tails being best buddies, but it doesn’t come off that way to everyone and feels weird coming after the Japanese-written games. It doesn’t really feel right but isn’t as big of a change to me as Tails’s breakdown in Forces. (I’m still not sure if that actually needed to be addressed in-game, but ultimately Frontiers was the best place to do it since so much of it about the side characters’ introspection. I doubt we’ll ever hear about it again.)
16:36 - I ask this because they haven’t appeared in any recent Classic Sonic media as far as I know, but is there anything going on at Sega preventing use of the Classic versions of Team Chaotix? I’d love to see them reunited with Knux and Mighty given the chance.
Some very good questions today!
0:10 - Okay, genuine question: When Blaze "dies" at the end of Silver's route in '06, she actually goes to the Sol Dimension, correct? If so, that means her backstory of being born into her royal family wouldn't make sense, because '06 happens before the Rush games. Was she reborn into that dimension, with fleeting memories of Crisis City that she remembers in Generations? Is the Blaze from '06 a completely different Blaze?
(...) Sonic Rush comes first. The Blaze of 06 is the Blaze of Rush, and she doesn't die. She turns into Burning Blaze and warps back to her own dimension and forgets the events of 06.
1:10 - Shifting gears over to her fighting partner, Silver travels back in time many times to save his future. Because of how time actually works, does this mean that every time he goes back in time to prevent a tragedy, he goes back to his own time just to see the next one? Has Silver actually ever experienced a happy world, not ravaged by Iblis, Eggman, or any third threat? Has every game he's been a part of happened in quick succession from his point of view because of this? If so, where did he find the time to come to Sonic's birthday party in Generations?
(...) As far as my understanding is, there is one future and it's in general in good condition (Sonic Colors DS).(...). It's not Back to the Future rules, it's not Avengers rules, it's not Hot Tub Time Machine rules, it's its own special brand.
3:06 - Last question about '06. It's obvious that Blaze remembers at least parts of her role in the story. Does Sonic remember anything about '06 as well? I personally always thought Blaze was the ONLY person who remembered the Solaris Incident, but I've also talked/argued with others who believe Sonic remembers it as well, because he references it in Team Sonic Racing.
I think the official line is Blaze doesn't remember anything (...), and Sonic's reference in TSR I honestly don't know if that's meant to be canon (...). Sonic time travels plays by its own rules.
24:52 - I saved the most complicated question for last. It's been confirmed that Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic are the same Sonic, and that Modern Sonic experienced the events of Mania and Forces, along with Classic Sonic experiencing Mania, and then going on through the Adventure games and beyond. I wanted to ask how this is possible.
[Ian's answer was kind of unsatisfactory here]
I had more or less gathered as much. The Sonic franchise seems to be using a “meta-time” in which events in the past don’t immediately impact the future. It takes time for actions to be solidified and take effect “downstream” - if only to give Silver brief respites from each of his adventures in the past. Silver might stop Nega and save his own time, for instance, but after a while his present shifts to the next post-apocalypse and he starts all over again. Why Silver seems to be aware of changes to the time stream, and if he’s the only one with this ability… who knows. It’s ultimately not important to the franchise as a whole to get into the details of fictional quantum mechanics surrounding a side character whose present is almost never seen.
I don’t think it’s fair to call his response unsatisfactory when the question wasn’t really specific about what required an explanation.
Maybe I was too much far ahead, but what I got from this question was: "How come Sonic in Forces did not remember anything from Mania if it's the same Sonic?"
I think the only real answers you could give to that are “he forgot somehow when he went back to the past” or “just don’t think about it”
edit: oh, I think I misunderstood the question as being why classic Sonic didn’t remember the future and not modern. I assume it’s not really the most important thing for the people in charge to decide on right now, so there’s probably just no official answer. Ian’s guess would probably be as good as anyone else’s.
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