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The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    But they were acknowledging he existed when, as far as we know, Sonic is the only one who remembers those events (possibly Blaze too, but Sonic Generations was fairly time-weird...) and thus Mephiles. Silver doesn't remember the events in Team Sonic Racing after Sonic teases him about something he did during that game, so...
     
  2. Linkabel

    Linkabel

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    I'm assuming that's why they took him out of the script. My point was that it wasn't the real Memphiles. (For those that haven't read the script)
     
  3. Jucei

    Jucei

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    Does anyone else think that Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces make absolutely no sense story-wise, and wrecks the continuity of multiple games in the series? Even Mania alone has me tearing my hair out trying to understand it, and learning more info about the game leaves me even more confused?

    Like does Mania even have a story? How, where and when do Sonic, Tails & Knuckles recoup after Hydrocity, find the Tornado, and chase down Eggman and the Heavy Magician in Mirage Saloon? Do the Heavies even exist? How much of the game is an illusion, or does Mania's Ruby even follow the same rules as Forces'? How exactly did a prototype exit Forces' time period into Mania's?

    How come something on the Phantom Ruby's scale of power just end up appearing on Eggman's doorstep or the crust of Angel Island? What even are the Ruby's origins?

    A have a ton of other nitpicks about the games too. I'm not upset at the Mania or Forces team, but it feels like the development of them was to make a game first, think of the story second.
     
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  4. Levi Church

    Levi Church

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    https://www.youtube.com/@LeviChurch/videos
     
  5. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    [​IMG]

    Yeah, we've been over the subject many a time. You forgot the Knuckles cutscene discrepancy in Sonic Mania, where the EggRobos bump into Knuckles when they should be in Green Hill Zone and Hard-Boiled Heavies.

    Also, apparently, it's not the same Phantom Ruby in the Sonic Forces prequel comics, they were supposed to draw the unrefined ore but apparently never got the concept for it. So the Phantom Ruby of Sonic Mania just kinda disappears while Classic Sonic gets put into the middle of a warzone because ???...
     
  6. Battons

    Battons

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    It would only really make sense if sonic would be the only one seeing mephiles or if he was only around when sonic was, either way it just makes the already mess of a plot even more messy.
     
  7. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    The point I was trying to make is that the games are not opposed to bringing him back in some form, despite Ian Flynn being denied his usage.

    It just seems to me that SEGA want the games in control of the fate of game characters, so comics can not bring a game character back, at least not until the games do. Black Doom is forbidden until Shadow: Agent of G.U.N. or something reveals he was still alive.

    Might also be why he's introducing so many comic-originating characters in Sonic the Hedgehog (IDW Comics): he has more control, though if the Warp Topaz and Sally Acorn's fate with Endgame during Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie Comics) is any indication, SEGA still ultimately have final say.
     
  8. Jucei

    Jucei

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    So this is a bit of headcannon(maybe), but I've always had an idea for the origins of the Phantom Ruby. See this excerpt from the manual of Chaotix:

    Perhaps, the energy of the Master Emerald has to do with the appearance of the Phantom Ruby? We know that the Master Emerald has the capability to create the Chaos Rings, so what if the Phantom Ruby was created by Angel Island's impact during Sonic 3?
     
  9. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Problem there is the Chaos Rings were created by Robotnik via use of a "special" ring siphoning off the Master Emerald's energy.
    The Phantom Ruby has thus far been implied to be 'natural', with Robotnik finding an unrefined ore outside his door.

    That he uses to great effect against Knuckles. And then decides to try and recreate it once and stop entirely once done so instead of creating an army of Infinites...

    Anyway.
     
  10. Pengi

    Pengi

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    That doesn't say that Eggman created the Chaos Rings. The artificial rings that Eggman created are called Dark Rings: https://info.sonicretro.org/Chaotix/Manuals#Translated_from_Japanese_manual

    The "mysterious space created by the Special Ring" refers to the Special Stages and Bonus Stages that all of the game's Special Rings transport you to.

    The Bonus Stage and Special Stage sections of the manual confirms that the rings that transport you there are Special Rings (this is the same terminology used in Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles' manuals).

    The Bonus Stage section of the manual says that the Bonus Stage is a place filled with pillar energy: https://info.sonicretro.org/index.php?title=File:Chaotix_32X_JP_manual.pdf&page=32

    The Special Stage section of the manual repeats the part about the Chaos Rings being crystalized pillar energy, formed in the space created by the ancient Special Ring, and makes no mention of them being Eggman's creations: https://info.sonicretro.org/index.php?title=File:Chaotix_32X_JP_manual.pdf&page=36
     
  11. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Ah, that's me misreading Special Ring as special ring, since the translation lacks capitals, and mistaking it for some sort of ancient device he was using to make the Chaos Rings, my bad.

    Sonic the Comic's been on my brain recently and they had the ring be an ancient device, that's probably where I picked that idea up from.
    [​IMG]
     
  12. Overlord

    Overlord

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    In fairness, especially for Mania, this is the exact correct approach. It's a video game, not a movie. =P
     
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  13. RDNexus

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    From what's been unveiled of each classic game's development, over the years, it seems Sonic Team always tried to work on plot and play equally from the beginning.
     
  14. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    6:48 - If classic sonic is just the past and not an alternate timeline why did the events of generations not affect his future adventures in any way? Is it a case where his adventures as we see them in game are only that way because Time Eater messed with time and if Time Eater was never a factor would the events of games like sa1, sa2 and heroes have happened differently then how we see them in game.

    [Apparently there is still no official answer for that]

     
  15. Jucei

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    I always felt that with Sonic Team's games, or at least the Mega Drive/Genesis trilogy of Sonic games, they worked on the plot of the games and gameplay in tandem.
     
  16. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Simple answer: there was no change to the timeline. The Time Eater was an event that always occurred.

    Classic Sonic only really fights Metal Sonic and the Death Egg Robot, Modern Sonic takes on Shadow, Perfect Chaos, Silver and Egg Dragoon, so he really doesn't get any new information to work with other than "at one point I visit an alien world... cool!"

    The reason Modern Sonic doesn't remember it is down to that weird half-implemented subplot where Sonic appears to have amnesia, likely due to the Time Eater devouring his events. See: Sonic not recognising Green Hill Zone and Tails realising "we've been here before" in Chemical Plant.

    Funny thing I noticed, Modern Sonic notes three specific instances regarding the weirdness of the situation:

    "I've been to magic books and an alien amusement park."

    Why is that notable? Because it's two events Robotnik was not involved with, so doubtful he cared to erase them, and the event that led to his encountering the Time Eater, setting up the current events.
     
  17. David The Lurker

    David The Lurker

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    Dr. Eggman created the alien amusement park. It's called "Doctor Eggman's Incredible Interstellar Amusement Park."

    But I agree that Classic Sonic did not learn enough information to radically alter his future. The small bits and pieces he may have picked up on don't matter much to him, because he knows that in the end things worked out. Sonic always looks towards the future, so even a version of Sonic who saw bits and pieces of the future is not going to sit and dwell on them, he's going to run ahead and see what comes.

    When it comes to Eggman, Classic Eggman doesn't know much of what the future holds either, as evidenced by the conversation he has with Modern Eggman in the post-credits scene. He asks if they ever win, which implies Modern Eggman told him nothing about the previous plans he's put into motion. He sees Shadow and Rouge briefly, who encourage Sonic, and Classic asks who they are - and gets no information about who they are and what they do, just that they are "insignificant." Them cheering Sonic on doesn't even mean that they're necessarily on Sonic's side, because anyone in this moment would have a vested interest in reality returning to the way it was. So if he vaguely recognizes Shadow or Rouge in his future, he might still be cocky enough to go "I'll use them until I get my way," since he's not looking to make friends with any of these people. Not to mention there's that line where he says he's going to try and forget everything that's happened...we don't know how "long" either Eggman was in white space. It can be wacky there. People might forget things. Eggman certainly doesn't try to become a teacher once he gets out.

    Forces...that's a bit harder of a nut to crack. I mean, Classic definitely is just hanging out with people. But hey, maybe because he doesn't talk, he never asks anyone their name. Never asks what their deal is. Maybe he just doesn't care. Or the Phantom Ruby made him forget what Silver looks like?

    It's fine don't worry about it.
     
  18. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Indeed, but without that park and specific event, there's no Time Eater, thus no Sonic Generations.

    <slowly raises his Phantom Sonic idea to remove that particular continuity kerfuffle>
     
  19. David The Lurker

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    But Colors is also one of the games represented in White Space, implying its been wiped out like everything else, and has to be restored by Sonic. If Eggman has to preserve any moment in time, it would only be the moment he encounters the Time Eater. If all of Sonic Colors has to be preserved, then why not any other game? Eggman has to be defeated multiple times to get him to the place where he is fighting Sonic aboard an Interstellar Amusement Park he created, but none of those events matter. Literally everything is wiped out, including Colors.

    If you make Classic Sonic from Forces a phantom, you have to throw out the digital manual to Plus. Not to mention there still is no real reason why the Phantom Ruby would make Classic Sonic appear. No one has a ruby in their possession that would think "oh yeah let's um have sonic reappear." Mania --> Forces --> Encore Mode form, in a loose sense, a three act structure, with a cliffhanger that teases a potential sequel we've yet to get, and maybe never will. You can pretend the main campaign of Mania flows into Encore Mode and ignore Forces completely, but there's no one who was involved in the development of either games that has contradicted the idea that Classic Sonic was meant to be the same character through it all. That was the intent by Sonic Team, that was what the Mania team implemented, and auxiliary material like Sonic Mania Adventures tells the viewer "yeah this is all connected." Unlike, for example, the idea of "Two Worlds," Classic Sonic's journey was shown visually in the games, and mentioned in the manuals. If Classic Sonic in Forces was just an illusion (which would be easier to argue in a world without Mania), that requires retcons that throw out the game designer's original intent, manuals and all.
     
  20. Rafa Stary

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    Last edited: Feb 23, 2023