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The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Considering that they also say the Prequel Comics are canon, despite making no sense at some points (seriously, the Phantom Ruby is having power issues and you leave the gem of infinite power alone when the Guardian immediately runs off with Silver right in front of you!?), I'm kinda ignoring Word of God a majority of the time...
     
  2. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    True, but at the end of Encore Mode, Sonic and his friends are in Mirage Saloon and one of the HBH shows up. That can't (shouldn't?) be an illusion, because Eggman and the Phantom Ruby were long gone at the final boss battle.
     
  3. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    But the Heavy King pops up. And as the Knuckles cutscene shows, they're still actually EggRobos.

    Could be a lingering effect. We know Phantoms can operate independently, since the Phantom Zavok was holding Sonic in space, while the Phantom Ruby itself is on Earth. Or Mirage Saloon does exist outside Oil Ocean, we just see a Phantom recreation where Robotnik rules.

    The Heavy King also pops up with an ice cream thing as well...
     
  4. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

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    I personally don't subscribe to the theory that Mania is all an illusion for a few different reasons.

    1. The Mania team have said themselves that the Phantom Ruby in their game manipulated reality.
    2. The Hardboiled Heavies remain in their new forms when Classic Sonic returns to Angel Island in Encore mode.
    3. In Forces, this reality warping nature is actually shown in that it brought Classic Sonic forward in time. Tails even comments on it in the Japanese script (albeit as affecting dimensions)
    4. I believe Ian has likewise mentioned his belief that the Ruby from Mania is the original copy and he wrote the comic with the intent that the one Eggman found outside his base was the same Ruby. I don't remember which Bumblecast but Hopefully someone can find it.
    5. If the events of Mania are a virtual reality illusion, how did Classic Sonic make it into Forces? (which is the intent by both teams of the respective games)
    Not to rag on you Blackhole, but if your intent is to respect the authorial intent of the games, then we should accept what they said as fact. The events of the game are valid, not illusionary happenstance across both games that are really disconnected. Yes there has been some light reconning of the facts regarding dimensions and the past that directly affect this game's authorial intent, but I'd argue it's not as huge as saying everything involving Classic Sonic is an illusion.

    Personally, I believe the Ruby in Mania is the real one and wound up outside Eggman's base in the future due to the reaction with the Chaos Emeralds. It's from this Ruby that all the VR prototypes are created and it's the one Eggman attempts to use to defeat Sonic at the climax of Forces (unless he perfected his VR copy?). After his defeat, both Classic Sonic and the Ruby are sent back into the past for the events of Encore mode.

    As for the discrepancy between the two cutscenes, how are we to assume the travel time with the Ruby's warping is instantaneous in all cases? Something I've noticed is that whenever Sonic & Tails are warped to a new zone by it, they retain their normal color palette and everything not affected becomes an inverted color palette (such as with Eggman when he warps them to Stardust Speedway, as he doesn't appear there with them in the Past). Likewise the Eggrobos are shown with an inverted color scheme.
    My theory is that they pulled the Ruby out of the ground, accidentally setting it off and flinging Sonic and Tails to South Island with a weak pulse of its power. They attempt to retreat, bump into Knuckles, and it goes off again. This time the pulse is much stronger and it changes them into the Hardboiled Heavies before sending them and Knuckles to Green Hill. Sonic and Tails arrive slower due to the weaker pulse, the Hardboiled Heavies make up the time with the stronger pulse.
     
  5. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    The problem is what they say is resulting in massive plotholes.

    Why did the Phantom Ruby go back in time/to another universe? Also, when did that happen? Robotnik never mentions having lost one.

    The Phantom Ruby is allegedly having power issues, but the comics never mention this despite featuring the perfect answer to those power issues in one (the Master Emerald). He leaves the Master Emerald since the Phantom Ruby was such a resounding success.

    [​IMG]

    This is the same Phantom Ruby he found outside his base.

    So why did he waste time building a new one, as seen by the masses of Phantom Ruby Prototypes in the opening that Infinite later has the destroy. One that seems to be inferior and constantly needing a power supply. And what happened to the one he found, the one which had such a resounding success he ignored the abandoned Master Emerald? That just straight up disappears.

    It's all a complete mess.

    Not to mention, we've got evidence of the Phantom Ruby being active in Knuckles' cutscene and it's not just a Sonic Adventure case. That unique animation, where it visibly glitches out. So if it activated, please explain how it's in two places (Green Hill Zone and Angel Island Zone) at once?

    It's just a lot of continuity mess and plotholes that need filling, but SEGA have pretty much distanced themselves from the mess instead of cleaning it up. And Ian, but I can't hold him at fault, he was just told what to write and wrote it.
     
  6. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    If you're all about going by authorial intent, then the bolded part is wrong. The Ruby outside of Eggman's base is supposed to be the original ore from which Eggy made duplicates (prototypes), while the one in Mania is officially labeled as one of the replicas by concept art.
     
  7. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Well, the one they use in the comic as the prototype, anyway.

    It really doesn't look like the Sonic Mania Phantom Ruby, being rounded and spikey versus the smoother, more angular one seen in Sonic Mania.
     
  8. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    The prototypes' design is consistent with the Mania Ruby. The original ore in the comic uses the wrong design due to the artist not having been shown the concept art with the multiple Ruby designs.
     
  9. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    I would dispute that, like I said it's too angular and smooth compared to the prototype design, which is rounded and jagged.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I could see it being a 'cut' Ruby though, like a uncut and cut diamond:

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Blue Spikeball

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    I think you're nitpicking. You can clearly see that it looks the closest to the ruby on the right. It's not triangle-shaped like the final ruby, or encased in rock like the original ore.
     
  11. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    Well there are good prototypes and bad prototypes.
     
  12. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Closest does not mean the same. If you recall, that's actually the Avatar's Prototype as well: it's the one they're using the face Infinite, which shatters at the end so can't exactly go through time.
    [​IMG]

    And it's not like they did a higher render for another game like Sonic Forces: Speed Battle, where it retains the smoother, angular outline...
    [​IMG]
     
  13. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    In this case I think the intention was for them to be the same shape.
    These tiny differences we would have to ignore just like differences in the Chaos Emeralds throughout the games.
     
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  14. Childish

    Childish

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    okay so how does putting triple trouble between sonic 2 and sonic 3 have less issues than the continuity between forces and mania
     
  15. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Everyone on the board right now:
    [​IMG]

    I'll simply answer there's not really that many plotholes doing so, the backstories of Sonic Triple Trouble and Sonic the Hedgehog 3 are basically the same so it's a pretty easy merge, and leave it at that.
     
  16. Blue Spikeball

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    What are you trying to get at? There were multiple prototypes. It doesn't matter if some were smoother than others, in the end they're all replicas.
     
  17. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    What I'm getting at is just because they're similar doesn't mean they're the same.
    We don't know what the Phantom Ruby of Sonic Mania really is: the design labelled prototype in the concept art is for Sonic Forces' prototypes, not Sonic Mania. When they made the render, they made an entirely new model using a different design despite having the prototype models to hand from Sonic Forces. That seems a lot of effort for something only separated by a game's artstyle.
     
  18. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    Mania + Forces, Rush + 06 + Rivals and 8-bit games + 16-bit games are the real triple trouble.
     
  19. Childish

    Childish

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    the real plot holes were the blackhole we found along the way
     
  20. Blue Spikeball

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    The concept art literally states that the prototype PR was the one used in Mania:

    https://greenyvertekins.tumblr.com/...-made-a-mistake-i-post-the-picture-in-the-ask

    As for Speed Battle using a different model for the PR, it's pretty standard to use different models for CG renders and gameplay. The gameplay ones are usually simplified and optimized for the sake of performance. It especially makes sense that they would do it for a phone game like Speed Battle.