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The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    Maybe I'm lost here within so many comments, but Ian did not defend CD before 2. He actually pitched for 1-2-3K-CD during Origins, but got outvoted.
    He imagined CD as Eggman trying to undo his defeats in the Death Egg Saga using time travel.

    What I read from this answer is that it's not some official explanation on why Sonic went to Little Planet. He just said the first thing he thought at the moment of the question.

    In fact, there was no need for Sonic to go to West Side Island just because he had that vision. He's not searching for the Chaos Emeralds - Eggman is. We don't even know if Sonic knew where West Side Island was, before Sonic 2.
    At some point Little Planet showed up and that must have caught the attention of Sonic and Eggman, and they both went to Never Lake. A giant natural satellite over an island is not something to ignore.

    Metal Sonic being the most advanced robot is basically the only argument for CD after 3K. And it's not a strong one. You could imagine Metal Sonic being designed to rival Sonic's speed, while Mecha Sonic mk I was designed to kill Sonic in a fight, and Mecha Sonic mk II was designed to harvest Chaos energy.
    CD before 2 has more arguments, like Tails being absent, and the spindash being weird as if Sonic was still learning how to do it. But these arguments are not strong either. Tails can be absent in any game (even fricking Sonic 4 Episode I), and the spindash is just gameplay mechanic. The best spindash by far is in Sonic Generations, but of course that doesn't mean Classic Sonic comes from the future after perfecting his moves for years.

    At the end of the day, CD's placement is a matter of preference. And judging for the new canon/Origins, they went with the idea of the main classic games being a great arc. In that sense, CD before 2 is the best decision, because 3K is a much better conclusion to a saga than CD.
     
  2. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

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    Last edited: Feb 23, 2023
  3. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    By the time of Sonic 4 Episode II that was precisely the idea, as far as I remember. CD has always been this weird outsider between 1-3K, and they decided to tie it into Sonic 4.

    Thing is, people like CD and hate 4, so this tie-in didn't work out.
     
  4. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Are you kidding me? The guy who's been working on this franchise for almost 2 decades, who has been running a podcast that mostly addresses questions regard that franchise for 15 years and has shown a deep knowledge of said franchise doesn't care? I don't mind if people have criticisms with what Flynn puts out, and I understand the qualms people have with the fact that the BumbleKast has become a defacto primary source of background information in spite of the fact it is unsanctioned as far as SEGA is concerned, but I feel like, if there's one thing you can never accuse Ian Flynn of, it's not caring.

    The man has said time and time again that he wants everything to be able to fit together and that his past self was be apopletic with the concessions he's made. The crux of the matter is that Ian has the grace to conceed. He knows that the franchise is bigger than him and that sometimes you just have to let it go, no matter how strong your conviction is. He's not the singular driving force behind Sonic continuity and it'd be poor form to throw others under the bus for decisions that he may have disagreed with. Sure, sometimes the answers he gives me satisfactory but they're off the cuff and largely headcanon unless officially confirmed or explicitly stated to be the official stance.
     
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  5. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Yeah, I wouldn't say Flynn doesn't care. He clearly cares a lot.

    My concern with him is that he keeps trying to rewrite stuff when given the chance. He wanted to put Sonic the Hedgehog CD at the end of the trilogy and say Robotnik was trying to use the Time Stones to undo his past defeats, for instance. Then you've got Sonic Origins as it came out, and he's most likely going to be the one rewriting the Game Gear games' stories to accommodate it.

    I dread him going anywhere near the old games or handling continuity now. Like, the Sonic the Hedgehog CD idea is interesting for an adaptation, but it's not the plot of the game.
     
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  6. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    If it came a time to reboot the whole franchise's continuity from scratch, I might trust him to take the helm of it all.
    Not with 100% belief in him, true, but with a pinch of trust in his love and expertise of the franchise as a whole ^^"
     
  7. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    FWIW I agree that Ian's idea to retcon CD into Origins' finale where Eggman attempts to undo his past defeats ala Generations is a bit too fanfiction-ish. In fact, a number of his retcons/interpretations of events feel like that to me. If I had to leave the franchise's continuity to a single person, I'd pick someone more restrained than him.
     
  8. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

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    Last edited: Feb 23, 2023
  9. Personally I’m glad that Origins chose the pre-2 placement for CD as opposed to post-3&K. I’m not sure that any of the arguments for either placement hold much weight; they either rely on out of universe material (Tails’ screen, early less developed spin dash) or arguments that could be explained away under either theory (Tails’ absence, Metal Sonic’s apparent superiority to other Sonic robots).

    I just find that on a meta-textual level the aesthetics of CD reflect a unique, early take on Sonic owing to being developed concurrently with Sonic 2 and before the tropes of the series had been cemented. Better in my mind to place it before Tails and Chaos Emeralds and Death Eggs became the norm.
     
  10. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    Well, that's quite the issue...
    Anyone possibly capable of dealing with the continuity should be a fan of the franchise...
    But such entity would also have bias and headcanons which could affect the continuity...
    Indeed, what a conundrum...

    @Rafa Stary the main issue here, with anyone capable of giving us structured intel of the franchise, is the contractual issues with SEGA.
    They may have only that enough wiggle room for the fanbase, and even that much may be making them dip toes into a bit of hot water.
    As long as SEGA doesn't give full green light to reveal as much from the franchise as possible, we'll be always treading on this thin ice...
     
  11. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    I'm not quite sure about that. I remember him saying that this order of events was going to be dealt by the lore team, which he is not part of, or at least not the only one. Of course, they might give him the task of rewriting the plot of these games, but this would happen only after they decide when each game fits and what are their core aspects.

    I think this comes down to a discussion he commented about on the BumbleKast itself. Sometimes a question simply doesn't have an answer and doesn't need to. You just accept things the way they are. And he said the young Ian Flynn also wanted to have all the answers for all the questions in Sonic's lore, but now he just goes with the flow.

    Of course, this is valid only for these kinds of questions.
    For some other questions, when he feels there should be an answer and he doesn't know what it is, he outright say "I don't know", or "take this with a grain of salt, this is my interpretation, not an offical answer". And sometimes he knows the answer but can't say it yet, then he throws us that #KnowingSmile that everyone and their mother hate.
     
  12. Pengi

    Pengi

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    Ian's said he's on the lore team, in a freelance capacity.

    Katie Chrzanowski also mentioned Tyson Hesse and Evan Stanley in this tweet.

    Exactly. People need to understand this distinction. Ian is usually very clear about whether something is an official answer, his personal opinion/interpretation, or a gag answer. Context is key.
     
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  13. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    I wonder if Ian Flynn has ever been a member of this community or if he entertains such idea nowadays... ^^"
     
  14. Boxer Hockey

    Boxer Hockey

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    Because of his distance and former position Ohshima can say basically whatever he wants and not suffer any repercussions. This is an unfair comparison to make. Ian isn't saying things off the cuff so much as not revealing more information than he's allowed. Bumblekasts have never been presented as press releases and it's the responsibility of the listener to recognize that.
     
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  15. Rafa Stary

    Rafa Stary

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    Last edited: Feb 23, 2023
  16. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    What was the conundrum with Knuckles' cutscene in Mania again? I keep forgeting that.
     
  17. JaxTH

    JaxTH

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    Jack shit.
    This happened when?
     
  18. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    In Sonic's cutscene, the EggRobos collect the Phantom Ruby, which triggers and 'sends' them all to Green Hill Zone, where the Hard-Boiled Heavies fly off.

    In Knuckles' cutscene, the EggRobos fly onscreen with a glitching Phantom Ruby, which hits Knuckles and retriggers, sending them all to Green Hill Zone.

    They should be Hard Boiled Heavies by the time they fly onscreen in Knuckles' cutscene. And also in Green Hill Zone. And the Phantom Ruby glitches when it does appear onscreen in the latter cutscene, suggesting it deliberate.


    Here, Raiden says the prior timelines, and we only knew of two, the original and the X Timeline. Kronika's been resetting time over and over each time.
     
  19. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    Jesus Christ you're right.

    The weird thing is, in Sonic's cutscene they take the Phantom Ruby upwards on the screen. In Knuckles' cutscene they are just running away with it. I guess it could be part of the alleged illusion, but do we have precedent of the Phantom Ruby creating an illusion of itself?
     
  20. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    [​IMG]

    One of Infinite's moves during Sonic's fight with him is to create clones of himself, Phantom Ruby and all.

    2:28


    Is there a way to link to specific times I'm missing, incidentally?