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The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Sonic Generations disagrees, since he's back in Green Hill/on South Island to be captured by the Time Eater, yet is already friends with Tails.

    It's like you said, it's not like they're friends. A handshake is hardly "we're BFFAEs now!", it can be read gentleman's agreement to not attack each other as they leave.

    I mean... I'm fairly certain filler goes between stuff to fill out time.

    Would you suggest that the filler story in Dragon Ball Z where someone is building a shelter to protect people from Cell's destruction of Earth would be better suited for AFTER they kill Cell?

    Yet one establishes the meeting, the other does not. That's the fun of context, it can change when new elements are introduced. I don't change the words, I change the context to facilitate the words.
    More often than not, the story will focus on Luke, Leia or Darth Vader, if it's set around the Original Trilogy's era. Which most stuff is nowadays, since no one likes the Sequel Trilogy.

    So kind of.

    No, they add to it. Like that scene where Vader learns the name of the Rebel Pilot who destroyed the Death Star.

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    Not really. There's only one game causing issues due to feelings, and that's Sonic the Hedgehog 3.

    To me, they can take Sonic Triple Trouble and make a small character arc out of it for Knuckles.

    Knuckles considers Sonic a massive threat and tries to kill him. Sonic helps him out at the end and Knuckles realises something is amiss with Robotnik's description.

    He returns to Angel Island, Sonic arrives for Sonic the Hedgehog 3 and, instead of trying to kill him as he did in Sonic Triple Trouble, he tries to warn him off the island instead.

    (He blindsides Sonic and has him dead to rights, but simply takes the Chaos Emeralds and leaves?)

    Once Knuckles learns of Robotnik's treachery, he goes down to the surface to punish Robotnik, as established in Sonic Blast's manual.

    You get a little three act story arc for Knuckles.

    Still, I think it's clear I'm still the minority on this. I view what they're doing to the 8-bit games as a bastardisation, but at this point the fanbase is onboard with it so let's not fill this thread with more arguing over it.

    Mortal Kombat also canonised every single ending of the various character's arcade modes, so...
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2023
  2. Ura

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    While I had Forces in mind when I first brought up the fact that it's weird for Sonic to keep coming back to South Island, I totally forgot about Generations. Still, we don't actually know when Generations is set, and I would still argue two games where Sonic goes back to South Island is better than at least five games, with most of them happening very close to each other

    My point here is not being able to do it at all, that's why I brought up the possibility of them not becoming friends in TT in the first place, but that's interpreting the story in a way it's not supposed to given it's own context. Changing the context is still retconning it because it alters how the story will be perceived in comparison to the intended version. The first time Sonic and Knuckles met each other is intended to be at Angel Island Zone, as I said, you can change that, but that's what it is, a change that takes advantage of the lack of context that is the result of the game not having dialogue to confirm that they didn't know each other at that point.

    It's fine to have your own theories and headcanons, I myself like to believe that the Emeralds we see inside the special stages of Sonic 1 are just replicas of the real ones, and when Sonic collects them and brings these replicas to outside the special stages, they are replaced by the real emeralds, which were being guarded by Knuckles as described in the Sonic 3 manual, and that's what that alternate set of Emeralds was, the reason why this happens is because someone was able to collect six of the seven emeralds in Westside Island after they were sealed and escape to South Island, were they used the power of the Emeralds to their fullest until they were sealed there, then later the Echidnas collected these Emeralds and the Special Stages created the replicas to replace them because their had a very strong connection. Since this is not the headcanon thread, I will avoid going into much too detail (or at least, more detail), but there's a lot more to this theory than what I just said, I think it's charming to take stuff that's already there and add more context to it, but I also have to recognize that this explanation is needlessly convoluted and complicated, while I'm really not a fan of them explicitly changing the actual text from the manuals, I can't say that this would necessarily be much better than just ignoring this set of Emeralds that never appear again anyway. While I still think Origins should've just been the beginning of a new continuty because I prefer the original text to stay as untouched as possible, I can't blame them for not adressing stuff like this, doing my way wouldn't really add anything to what's there and if they are going to reimagine that story in any way (like they did with Origins) it's better to just do what makes the most sense for most people (I'm still not a fan of a lot of changes they made tho). At this point, you're expecting Sega to follow your own headcanon instead of finding the solution that works the best (or second best after a reboot, seriously, this series is a mess, you guys should just start over and do it right this time)


    No, because your example is from something that expands upon content from the Cell Arc while the 8-bit games are their own thing, they aren't adding context by themselves, they're simply inspired by the main games in some way or another, it's not just because you can interpret them as supplemental to the main series that this should be how it's done
     
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  3. RDNexus

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    The franchise (either due to its age or lack of proper long-term planning) has become so contrived that work it out properly could become a game in itself... ^^"
     
  4. Wraith

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    Just to make sure I'm clear here, you think it makes more sense that Knuckles dealt with Sonic and Eggman before Sonic 3, was captured and almost killed by eggman, before being rescued by Sonic and still believed Sonic was a bad guy and Eggman was trustworthy? You think this is a good, sensible character arc? If you do, I hope you're not one of those people that complains about newer games making him look dumb, cause...
     
  5. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    That's why I said many pages ago that I wouldn't mind much if they change the islands of some 8-bit games. It's too much South Island, and it's even hard to believe all those zones fit into South Island map.

    That also happens in Sonic Labyrinth:
     
  6. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    It's not like Sonic doesn't stick to places sometimes. He stuck around Central City for Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Battle. Sonic Heroes is also implied to be nearby, since Amy's got a clipping from Central City's newspaper.
    He wanders where he wants, and if he wants to he'll also stay in a specific place. I mean, he seems to have a house in Sonic and the Secret Rings, why is residing in Green Hill so much of an issue?
    Except it doesn't. It's just a little filler arc they needed to let the manga get more chapters out before adapting the Cell Games. Nothing about that arc expands on anything, beyond people being terrified of dying, which is a given.

    Incorrect. I don't think he was captured by Robotnik in Sonic Triple Trouble.
    Fang the Sniper's there as well, and has no reason to be: he was independent from Robotnik.
    So why was he in the Atomic Destroyer, close to where Knuckles was in a cage, before Robotnik chased him out?

    And you speak as if the alternative, that Knuckles trusts Robotnik enough to pilot one of his machines after he had stolen the Master Emerald and electrocuted him before leaving him to die, is a better alternative.
     
  7. Do you really think the intention of the developers was for Fang to capture Knuckles in Eggman's base? Or the simpler explanation - that Eggman captured Knuckles in his own base? The game is very clearly a simpler retelling of Sonic 3's story - Eggman tricks Knuckles, Knuckles attacks Sonic, Eggman attacks/entraps Knuckles when his usefulness is up, Sonic earns Knuckles' trust and defeats Robotnik. Making up this new story involving Fang, handwaving away the handshake as a "gentleman's agreement" - not only is it built on flimsy evidence, it makes the story of Triple Trouble a random series of events with no clear arc. It's fine for a personal headcanon to help fit the games together, but I think it's really missing the big picture to argue it is in any way intended by the developers.

    Also, the alternative to your theory is not necessarily "Knuckles got tricked yet again" - in the same way that one not following Christianity doesn't necessarily make one a Muslim. The alternative is not accepting that explanation. Perhaps there's some other explanation, such as the 16 bit fan remake's interpretation with Metal Sonic. Perhaps one doesn't accept Sonic Triple Trouble as canon at all. Arguing against some other explanation doesn't strengthen one's own.
     
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  8. BlackHole

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    I mean, can you explain why Fang is in a position he really has no business to be in? And why would Robotnik imprison Knuckles anyway?

    Did Robotnik really just let Fang hang out there, while he caged Knuckles because ??? instead of sending Knuckles after said intruder, and then turned his attention toward Fang?

    That seems more like Robotnik's setting himself up for failure, it's not like he has anything to gain for imprisoning Knuckles at that point either: he only turned on Knuckles in Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles because he finally found the Master Emerald after searching the island for it. Manual-wise, let's just not go into Sonic Origins' version.

    Manual makes it clear, the stranger Knuckles is tracking Sonic down since Robotnik told him Sonic was the villain.
    Seems pretty clear to me. The 16-Bit fangame rewrote the entire story completely, which I think we've established I hate occurring.
     
  9. The KKM

    The KKM

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    Saying the 8bit games don't fit the continuity of the 16bit games isn't disrespect, if anything trying to pretend they were all holding hands and preoccupied with the plot of the franchise between multiple internal sega teams and an outright external developer is deluded to the point of kinda disrespectful. They were focused on making sure the games worked with the character portrayals in the widest marketable sense, and chaining together the games they made. Each 8bit game is the sequel to the prior 8bit game, in the setting of South Island, and with no connection to the 16bit games. We even have stuff like Totoya talking about how he knows nothing of what the 8bit games did with Mecha Sonic as an example.

    Stop viewing this stuff with modern fan eyes. Take history and the circumstances thereof into account. These are not characters of fiction, they're real humans that did real work that did real projects, and saying "this project wasn't concerned with matching this other project in terms of plot that doesn't even show in screen" isn't disrespecting them because they aren't nerds in a forum trying to connect the continuity of Sonic the Hedgehog in the mid-90s, and people actually viewing these works in their historical context isn't disrespecting them so don't lever that accusation out.
     
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  10. 1. Fang is still in a position he has no business in even under your theory. You correctly state Fang is independent from Eggman. Why then has he caged Knuckles within Eggman's own base, walked some distance away (2-3 boss rooms) and fallen asleep? As you said, why would Eggman allow him there?

    2. Not to double down on debatebro terminology, but "well can you think of a better explanation?" is a classic fallacy of incredulity.

    3. I still find that the story as you present it is a series of non-sequiturs that don't form a cohesive plotline. Knuckles spends the game fighting Sonic, gets captured offscreen by someone's he's never met, and still thinks Sonic's a bad guy by the end? What a bizarre, unsatisfactory story that is for a player that I can't imagine being what the development team had in mind. (Also, said with all due respect, I do find it funny that the larger point of my previous post was to encourage seeing the bigger picture of the story, and in response you engaged with the minutiae rather than the main thesis.)
     
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  11. Kyro

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    I personally just think most of the 8 bit games are nonsense and were just there to fill out the game-gear/master system with sonic content anyways.

    To be totally frank, they arent the only games I kinda disregard whenever im thinking of continuity in the series, because they dont end up impacting anything in a positive way. I sort of view other smaller scale games like Sonic Advance the same way. If they are so simple that they can be completely disregarded with no real consequence, then I just mentally dont even register them. Advance 2/3 meanwhile I do consider, since advance 2 has a bit more going on between its little cutscenes and cream, and advance 3 taking big inspiration from battle and incorporating gemerl who has stuck around.

    Ironically enough, I would actually be keen to view triple trouble the same way as advance 3 thanks to fang... were it not for it contradicting s3k thanks to knuckles. I can really only agree with the others here, with how its presented, its not compatible with the genesis games to me, and as it stands just makes very little sense.
     
  12. The KKM

    The KKM

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    I think it's ok to try and fanfiction away a way to make the 8bit games work with the 16bit ones, but you need the awareness that you're doing a large retcon job with it- kinda like Ace Combat 4's treatment of the previous games in the series. I really do like the 8bit Sonics, but if you're merging them plot-wise with the 16bit ones, you need to decide which are the important story points as a general line- and most times, that'll be the 16bit ones. So yes, Sonic 3 should be Knuckles' first appearance, even if that means retconning Triple Trouble kinda heavily. As Kyro points, it's kind of similar to Sonic Advance, which were games made with heavier ST involvement and thus fit together with the mainline better, but are still independent isolated things. I believe I've made the comparison point here before of anime movie adaptations like the DBZ ones, where the characters get lifted from a specific point in the main story, are given a new story that doesn't concern itself with working with the main story, and that's the movie done.

    EDIT: Alternatively, and smartly, just follow the Sonic Mania approach- "all the games happened somehow. How? We're not explaining. They just did and thus we can use whatever we want from them from now on."
     
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  13. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    I feel like everyone keeps misreading my words.

    I'm not saying it's disrespectful to say the 8-Bit games are not in the same canon, I'm saying it's disrespectful to completely overwrite their stories for no reason.

    And I'm saying the 8-Bit games made an effort to try and fit around the 16-Bit games. Notice how no 8-Bit game actually features the meeting of Sonic and Tails, that was left to Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive). So Tails' Adventures is before they meet, Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive) is when they met, and Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (8-Bit) is after, when Sonic considers Tails his little buddy.

    Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (8-Bit) also references something from Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive)'s manual, which is amazing for a game that came out before it with no communications.

    And no, before it's misread somehow again, I'm not suggesting that the 16-Bit manual was written with the 8-Bit game in mind, I'm suggesting that perhaps the 8-Bit games were told what was going on or had access to documents detailing things and were working around that information.

    Sonic Team might not know what Aspect was up to, but Aspect were probably aware what Sonic Team were doing, or at least told what they could and could not do.

    Indeed, and if my real work got ejected for 'better' continuity, I'd be real annoyed.

    I also like you're accusing me of not considering the state of things at the time, when I'm the one not trying to rewrite things towards a modern understanding and instead trying to accommodate what was known at the time...

    Because he's looking for the Chaos Emerald, he hasn't fallen asleep and is waiting for Sonic, who he does know has Chaos Emeralds and Robotnik didn't, he bolts at the first indication of Robotnik being nearby.

    Quote the manual:
    I'm suggesting he snuck into Robotnik's base, outsmarted Knuckles, but it falls short in the end as he's chased off without any Chaos Emeralds because he got mischievous and decided to head Sonic off.

    I'm just tired of having to explain everything and no one offering an actually better explanation. Just "you're wrong."

    Your version is "Knuckles spends the game fighting Sonic, then gets put in a cage by Robotnik for no real reason despite Robotnik having successfully tricked him into thinking Sonic the villain." That's even more unsatisfying.

    Fang is at least a wild card between two feuding forces, of course one would think if he's in the area, he's done something while there.

    And my interpretation of events results in Knuckles not trying to kill Sonic the next they meet.

    Sonic Triple Trouble, if included in a timeline with Sonic the Hedgehog 3, starts with Knuckles fully buying Sonic the villain and ends with him unsure, but still trusting Robotnik in case it's a trick on Sonic's part (the delicious, delicious irony).
    Sonic the Hedgehog 3 starts with Knuckles taking the Chaos Emeralds, but leaving Sonic, the "villain", otherwise unhurt, and otherwise delaying his approach without actually harming him.

    Independently, the stories are separate yes, but we're talking about timelines including both.

    The alternative is rendering Sonic the Hedgehog 3 the unsatisfying one, since Knuckles, despite being betrayed and electrocuted by Robotnik and the Master Emerald stolen, then Sonic giving chase and returning it and leaving without further conflict... Knuckles still thinks Robotnik's trustworthy and attacks Sonic.

    So you think it's better that, when placed on a timeline together, Sonic Triple Trouble takes place after, and Knuckles trusts Robotnik despite everything that happened in Sonic the Hedgehog 3, and thinks Sonic is a villain claiming the Chaos Emeralds after having returned the Master Emerald despite being very easily capable of taking off with the thing and leaving Knuckles high and dry, and all this after Sonic once again saves Knuckles and the Master Emerald from falling from Sky Sanctuary after Knuckles' fight with Mecha Sonic and once more transporting them to Angel Island and leaving freely?
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2023
  14. Wraith

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    The "better alternative" is just not trying to make them fit together, because it doesn't work unless you change the storyline.
     
  15. BlackHole

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    So shall we eject Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) from the canon? Since that doesn't fit with the Chaos Emerald issues and all.
     
  16. Fang leaves Knuckles unprotected knowing full well Eggman may arrive and release him? And again, the larger point: none of this is communicated to the player. If the devs' intention was to show that Fang had captured Knuckles, wouldn't it have made more sense to have him immediately outside the cage? If this was their intention, you may very well be the only person to have seen the game's story and successfully interpreted their story.

    Alternatively, it's a loose adaptation of Sonic 3. Yes, Eggman still betrays Knuckles offscreen without clear explanation. I suspect this is the case because 1) they didn't have the time or resources to develop a game event highlighting this, and 2) they were relying on people playing the far more popular Sonic 3 & Knuckles to understand the basic plotline of this adaptation. It's akin to a licensed game for a movie - any plot points will likely be perfunctory in favor of developing gameplay.

    This may be the crux of our misunderstanding. I have strictly been arguing with respect to the intention of the people making the game. I am of the belief they had no intention to make the game exist on the same timeline as Sonic 3. Completely separate from that, as a fan of Sonic lore and wanting as many games to exist under a single continuity as possible, I would very much like Triple Trouble to be compatible with Sonic 3 - but I maintain that necessitates retcons. KKM put it very well in his previous post. If your intention is to headcanon away these discrepancies, I may have my disagreements with the details, but I have no problem with you doing so. But I cannot get behind the idea that your interpretation is anything but a retcon itself.
     
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  17. Wraith

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    Sure. Why not?

    Being real, I think you know the difference between a mainline game with a minor contradiction and a side game with a major one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2023
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  18. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Considering there's only one Fang, and he's hunting Chaos Emeralds, I would imagine it's a necessity so he can go find them, especially since Knuckles appears to be tucked out the way behind Robotnik's escape route and Sonic appears to take a second to 'see' Knuckles at the end.

    Ultimately, at the end of the day, we don't know which one did it. Fang is there and Robotnik is there, that's two different sides who could have done it, and only one has any real reason (to keep Knuckles from stopping his search for Chaos Emeralds), versus the other just doing it for giggles and losing everything as a result. Perhaps a question for the game's developers one day?

    Oh I hate things that require you having seen something else to understand what's going on, barring sequels since that's just their nature. If I'm following your example, it's like how (spoiler alert for) Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity + - requires you to have played The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild to understand who the hell these four random people are and their significance?  

    And there's another misunderstanding between us. I don't mind retcons, but they need to be as small and as unobtrusive as possible. That's why I focus on retconning the context of things, not the actual events.

    Sonic and Knuckles fight on Angel Island throughout Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles, I just change the context so this isn't their first fight, but it remains their most significant. That way, both stories retain their plots pretty much wholesale, it's just the context of the plot has changed.

    Knuckles still shakes Sonic's hand, but instead of thinking him a good guy, he just has doubts about Robotnik's claim and still considers Sonic a potential threat to Angel Island that he has to take the Chaos Emeralds from, since even if he helped him, Sonic did take the Chaos Emeralds from all parties involved like Robotnik said he would. It's only when Sonic willingly helps protect the Master Emerald and returns it that Knuckles realises he's been had.

    It can stand alone, or it can work into Sonic the Hedgehog 3's plot, dependant on the context you go for.

    Meanwhile, if we consider it after Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles, then you've got to retcon everything with Knuckles entirely. You can say it's Mecha Knuckles from Sonic Advance and Knuckles was always in that cage, if you want to, I can easily think of retcons like that, I just think they're obtrusive and avoid them as much as possible. Also begs the question of why Robotnik didn't make off with the Master Emerald if he had Knuckles in the cage, but eh.

    Anyway, the best example of a retcon is Devil May Cry. I recall explaining this but I think that post got deleted: Devil May Cry had Devil May Cry 2 at the end of the series, so the order was 3, 1, 4, 2, as confirmed with the Devil May Cry: 3142 Graphic Arts book. But with Devil May Cry V, they retconned Devil May Cry 2 to take place before Devil May Cry 4, which I find far more preferable since it recontextualizes Dante's personality in both without any change to the script.

    That's how retcons should be done: you don't chop and change, you recontextualize.

    But I know I'm in the minority of this, and I don't fancy bringing the moderators on my head, so shall we just call it a day on this and move onto other topics of discussion?
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2023
  19. This is a key reasoning behind me not putting much stock in those games. Japanese companies value their domestic audiences and products much more than what goes on abroad, so there will never be an instance those games “matter” unless they get released there in some form. Canon or not, they’re irrelevant.
     
  20. BlackHole

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    Problem is, they are relevant, as they reintroduce Silver after his only prior event wiped itself out of existence.