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The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    And that's where we differ. To me, none of the games are unimportant, Game Gear or Mega Drive. They all had hard work put into them and deserve the same respect, not to be rewritten because people refuse to include their stories because 'my feelings'. I find it disrespectful to the developers, who at least tried to fit their plots around what they knew at the time and did a decent job at it.
     
  2. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    But that's the thing. They did what they could at the time based on what they knew. What they knew was not what we know now.

    They probably thought there were several sets of Emeralds, one at each island, but now we know there is only one. They probably thought Metal Sonic was sorta fine after CD, but now we know he wasn't that fine (actually we still don't know exactly what happened to him, that part is a mess). They probably thought Triple Trouble was going to be released before 3K (I guess???) so they called Knuckles a stranger, but that didn't happen. They thought Tails was still young enough to go to Special Stages (???), and I don't even know why they thought that because he did it just fine in Sonic 2.

    I myself don't think it's disrespectful to them to change bits here and there in order to accomodate what we know now, since the core of what they have written is still preserved.

    I think it's disrespectful to do that releasing the Encyclo-speed-ia and Origins BEFORE the lore team is assembled to refine the canon. That rubs me the wrong way, like "first we get the money, then we fix it".
     
  3. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Except Sonic the Hedgehog 3 confirmed there were multiple sets. One set on Angel Island and one set on West Side Island at least.

    Chaotix actually explains Metal Sonic's return with Metal Sonic Kai.
    Sonic Triple Trouble was released November 11th, 1994. Sonic the Hedgehog 3 was released February 2nd, 1994.

    You're saying you don't care for any of them, happy to fully replace the lot, rather than the bits that need changing.
    And even then, you just need to look and they give you the answers.
     
  4. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    I was precisely talking about S3K in that part. They went with Knuckles guarding some Chaos Emeralds, and that makes no sense if it's only one set - which it is as we know today. This had to change in Origins (as long as S3K is a direct sequel of S2, of course).

    I know that. It does, but the game was released after Triple Trouble and Drift 2. I was referring to the devs of these games, who used Metal Sonic without Chaotix's explanation. And while Chaotix explains it, Mania and Sonic 4 made things convoluted again. They will have to present an order of events that makes sense for Metal Sonic, and maybe the Chaotix explanation will have to go away if it does not fit.

    I said
    Changing bits is fine by me, like I said. I did not say I'm okay with changing everything, but at the same time I don't think that ever happened.
    Like, I think it's fine to say Tails Adventure is not a prequel anymore, because to me that is changing a bit - the game itself does not approach this subject. I remember you condemning this change since you see it as a major and unnecessary one.
    I won't like it if they come and say that was not Cocoa Island and that was not Battle Kukku Empire, because those are a central part of the plot. But when the game happened, I don't think it is.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2023
  5. Plorpus

    Plorpus

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    No, it didn’t mention Westside Island at all. The set that Knuckles is guarding that disappear at the start of the story being a separate set is your interpretation. I interpret it as a plot hole, possibly brought on by not taking the intro of the game into account. Your interpretation would be my head canon if we only had those manuals to go off of, but it’s not something the text actually says.
    On a somewhat related note, do you have any proof that the manual stories (not the general plot of the game but the actual stories as written) were by the developers and not someone from marketing etc. like the US ones were?
     
  6. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Not according to Sonic Team at the time. And Sonic Blast does offer an potential explanation.

    I still see no issue, personally. Metal Sonic is a robot, we had four Mecha Sonics up to that point before Sonic Triple Trouble release date-wise. Not to mention even with Metal Sonic ramming face first into the door, all Robotnik needed to do was collect him before leaving the Little Planet. It was only Sonic the Hedgehog 4 that decided that didn't happen, as you pointed out, which I find more a fault of the 2010 writers than an issue with the 1990 games.

    Sonic Mania at least has the potential excuse of it all being an illusion, so they could've had Metal, all three Mecha Sonics and Rocket Metal team up to fight you and it not be an issue beyond confirming Sonic the Fighters took place before it.

    Except it changes Tails' story entirely. Tails is not an inexperienced kit fighting off a malicious force, we've now seen him help Sonic twice do the same thing, and depending on where they shove it there'll be the other Game Gear titles before it as well. So now they've got to explain why Tails can barely fly and has to relearn everything despite the several adventures, instead of the more logical course of him learning the skills in this adventure and they carried over to Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive) onward.

    Of course, then you have people trying to discredit gameplay as unimportant, despite it being the focus of a game and it only being an issue if you don't follow the JP Manual's story.

    Actually, I think they're the Chaos Emeralds he collected during Sonic Triple Trouble, not Westside Islands set, but I digress.

    And now we're trying to discredit the manuals entirely...

    No, no one is listed as the story writer. But considering the stories were relatively consistent until recently, with aspects coming to play as the games progressed like the Ancient Civilization mentioned in Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive)'s manual, I see no reason to assume it was just flavour text from Marketing.

    I would suggest asking those who worked on them to see who actually handled the story. I'd ask Yuji Naka on Twitter, but I think he's busy at the moment.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2023
  7. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    I don't think it does. You have to dive into heavy fan theory territory to get the concept of a shattered Chaos Emerald happened in a very obscure game and make it become different sets of Chaos Emeralds scattered across many islands. And then you have to explain why we don't have multiple sets of Emeralds anymore.

    That is probably not the best solution, since you can simply cut the "Knuckles was guarding the Chaos Emeralds" part out. Occam's razor.


    Yes, but see, Sonic 4 was made when the GG games weren't considered canon (well, they weren't considered canon since 1998 probably). So, as bad as Sonic 4 is, you can't blame their writers for disregarding the GG games since they were already disregarded at that time. That's the whole point, the writers can only do so much.

    Now the lore people will have to take all that mess into account and change things if needed. I don't see this as disrespectful, since everyone had to work with what they had, including these people in 2023 with several contradictory information across the games.


    I do that when I see Sonic not able to spindash in any boost game - or worst, having to rely on the pink wisp to do it in Colors. Or even when Sonic learns the homing attack at the end of Generations but does not use it until Sonic 4.

    In this case the best example I think it's Tails flying infinitely in Skypatrol as long as he eats some candy, but not in any other game that came after.

    You could argue that Tails Adventure is different because the progression of his abilities is a core part of the game. But that is only because the game is a metroidvania type of gameplay, not because it's plot relevant. It's not like Tails didn't know how to fly before the game begins. He already did, it's just that it's a tiny duration because you have to improve him. If his ridiculous flight duration in Skypatrol is not plot relevant, I just don't think it's different in Tails Adventure.
     
  8. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    The Chaos Emerald became five different jewels, not just shattered Chaos Emerald pieces, and each one was a different colour.

    Removing the Chaos Emeralds also removes his reason for being at the altar, since he was at the altar to check them (the Master Emerald 'pillar' is noted as below ground). He then starts looking around the island for them, resulting in his stumbling on Robotnik. So you've removed the catalyst for Knuckles' entire plot.

    I should note, my split Chaos Emeralds idea has been used successfully before, in Sonic the Comic to explain this exact discrepancy. Still love this comic.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I also fault SEGA, since SEGA at that point was starting to force Metal Sonic to be a single robot rather than multiple.

    I do, since there's ways to keep the original works intact with ease, but they're just simply deciding to cut as much as possible and rearrange everything. It still baffles me that they've made Sonic the Hedgehog (8-Bit) a different event to Sonic the Hedgehog (Mega Drive).

    They could have simply leaned heavily into his technological backstory and gave him new gadgets for progress instead, while keeping his natural abilities intact. But they didn't, since they were making a prequel.

    Meanwhile, they at least justify his continuous flight with the mint candy he eats, and it's not like we've not seen him sustain prolonged flight before, like during the boss fight in Marble Garden Zone. I might check the manual, see if they explain why Tails remains airborne, though I don't think there's any penalty for touching the ground, so it may just be Tails booking it and wearing himself out.
     
  9. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    I think it was because we have Sonic 2 on Game Gear that is not Sonic 2 on Mega Drive. You can't have 2 if you don't have 1, I guess.

    I kinda like to think that this "new" adventure is where Eggman kidnapped Sonic from in Generations. He was in Green Hill, which represented Sonic 1, but it looked like he was already friends with Tails, which makes no sense if true. Since all the GG games now happened somewhere after 3K, the GG Sonic 1 could be the explanation.


    I see that as another reason not to take his flight duration into account. There were no mint candies during the boss fight. It was just for gameplay purposes.
     
  10. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Eh, Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (8-Bit) had him and Tails go back to South Island, it's really a matter of when you place them really. I still maintain pre-Sonic the Hedgehog 3 myself, but definitely some time in the Game Gear period of things since that's the only time we know Tails was on South Island before Sonic Generations.

    Or Tails is a determined little guy, since Robotnik just removed the terrain.
     
  11. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    Thank god he had plenty of ground in Tails Adventure so he could fly just a little at the beginning. I would even argue he was still sleepy, and also hungry because he hadn't had any candies after waking up in a hurry.
     
  12. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    That doesn't cover his inability to roll into a ball, which we see he later learns mid-game, nor his lacking speed, despite said speed coming from his titular appendages. The game just plays as a prequel.
     
  13. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    Don't forget to mention that the upgrade to make him spindash is a Sonic icon. Which, since this game is a prequel, can only be gameplay mechanic.
     
  14. Ura

    Ura

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    Didn't the 8-bit version of Sonic 1 literally say that Sonic lives in South Island, when that's cleary not the case in the 16-bit games?

    To be honest, making them canon doesn't cause more damaged than like, half of the modern games that NEED to be canon and part of the same continuity yet they contradict each other, but I'm pretty sure most developers didn't care about the actual timeline, and whoever wrote the stories from these games didn't necessarily see them as part of the same world as Sonic 2 or S3&K for example

    The reason why I personally prefer to ignore the 8-bit games is because they are very similar to the older Dragon Ball movies, they are isolated experiences that take inspiration from what's new in the mainline series and tried to evolve from that point with their own interpretation of Sonic's World. That's why so many 8-bit games take place in South Island and have 6 Chaos Emeralds, or why Knuckles is tricked again in Triple Trouble. You can headcanon these games into a timeline if you really want to, but there's a reason why they chose to mostly ignore then until recently, when started to make alterations to make them fit because it was the best they could do. You can try making your Sonic 1 8-bits/Garlic Jr. fit in the canon all you want, but at the end of the day, that story is better being separeted because it's just a retelling of Sonic 1 16-bits/Saiyan Arc
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2023
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  15. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    I share your opinion, and stated so before in here. A case of fan demand taken in a bad way, in my opinion.
    SEGA, in the past, didn't worry about keeping games stuck to a proper continuity, at least to a small degree.
    And it can be seen now, with how many clusterfucks are needed to manage to stitch it all together decently.
    The idea of multiple timelines sounds better, with shows, comics and movies out there being their own things.
    The same can be done with the games, split them between mainline and alternates (for lack of better terms).
    It could also give current ST some wiggle room to retain some degree of continuity to the mainline games or retcon things as needed without going bonkers down the line.
     
  16. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Then he flat out doesn't know how to spindash, which still fits this point in the timeline.

    Nope, it basically gives a small recap of Sonic the Hedgehog (Mega Drive).

    Considering he was a stranger in Sonic Triple Trouble, there wasn't a first time.
     
  17. Ura

    Ura

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    I decided to check and it apparently does say that in the very first sentence
    Unless Windii's translation is incorrect, which I can't guarantee it isn't. Even then, I still think it's weird to have that many games in South Island when only Sonic 1 happened there in the mainline series

    Yes, that's my point. Triple Trouble isn't supposed to be a prequel or a sequel to S3&K, it's a separate thing, I didn't say he was trciked again In-universe, he was tricked again from the real world perspective, they were just reusing the basic story from Sonic 3 for him because that was what he was in the main games, a guy that acted as an antagonist because he think Sonic is going to caus trouble. Even if you can shove TT before Sonic 3, that's clearly not the intent and I don't think it's disrespectful to the creators of the 8-bit games to recognize that, you either leave it alone (Which is what they should've done) or retcon them to make them fit (Which, if this games are going to be canon, is the best you can do)
     
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  18. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Sonic Forces?

    Also, missed that line, sorry.

    I'm aware the mainline games weren't taking them into account.

    At the same time, we don't need to retcon them to fit them. It's not that hard to put them between the mainline games.

    I think of it like Star Wars. They did the movies, and the movies only focus on themselves, like the mainline games.
    Then you had stuff being written between said movies, like Splinter of the Mind's Eye. The movies wouldn't note them down, but they were still happening.

    The Empire Strikes Back takes place after A New Hope, and the Darth Vader comic series where Vader finds out Luke exists takes place between them.

    Sonic the Hedgehog 3 takes place after Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive), and Sonic Triple Trouble, to me, takes place between them.
     
  19. Ura

    Ura

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    It's never confirmed that the game takes place on South Island, the map seems to imply that Green Hill is in a larger continent for whatever reason. If we're supposed to believe that most of the game actually does take place in South Island, I still think it's fine because it happens much later than Sonic 1 in times of urgence, while having the 8-bit games in the same timeline implies that Sonic keeps coming back there all the time and I don't think that fits his character very well

    What you're not taking into account here is how this would affect the mainline games. Sonic and Knuckles both seem to be at friendly terms at the end of Triple Trouble (because that's how S3&K ended and they were just making the same arc again). Maybe you can give an explanation as to why Knuckles atacks Sonic in S3&K without hesitation, it's not like they necessarily became friends in Triple Trouble, but it's really worth it at that point? I didn't watch Star Wars, and so I don't know how well it worked for that franchise, but I still think that if you absolutely have to make these 8-bit games part of the timeline, putting they after the games that matter the most to the series is the better move. The 16-bit "line" is always going to take priority because they introduce a lot of important elements to the series and are to this day a very relevant part of Sonic history, not that the 8-bit "line" didn't introduce their own ideas, I love a lot of these games, Tails Adventure is one of my absolute favorites, but when you compare both "lines", the 8-bit will always feel like filler, it just feels wrong for most people to have a bunch of them shoved around what I feel is the important stuff

    Still using the example of Triple Trouble, no matter how you look at it, both it and Sonic 3 were supposed to be the first time Sonic and Knuckles meet eachother, by making them part of the same continuity, you are already retconning the story no matter what, that's why they should be their own continuity, their own split timeline that shares similarities with the 16-bit timeline, but existing as its own thing
     
  20. RDNexus

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    Do you understand such comparison ain't balanced?
    Do ALL Star Wars stories have the SAME characters doing stuff?
    I'm not into SW, but I'm sure only a bare handful of stories do so, and even so they might take a decent amount of care to the overall continuity.
    Or at least they do things in a way it doesn't cause issues to either said stories or the mainline ones.
    Sonic games don't work that way. The vast majority of them has Sonic & Eggman, at least, and their events may bring issues to the mainline stories.

    Even the Mortal Kombat series, a fighting game franchise, managed to keep a decent modicum of continuity, but that's me extrapolating...