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The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    I guess I'll dig up that post again...

    Writeup complete. *** WARNING - VERY, VERY, VERY LONG POST ***

    First things first, let me explain how I'm analysing the story.

    There are several ways of breaking apart time travel chronology; I've chosen timeline reconstruction, which allows you not only to see how a time loop can be stable, but also how it can be formed in the first place. The idea is to start with the “original timeline”, the one that “happened” before any time travel took place, and then follow each timeline as it unravels from there.
    Of course, there'd actually be an infinite number of loops before it becomes fully stable, as minute differences in particles happen each time. However, we're only interested in the events here.

    Notes:
    I'm assuming three time “periods” – 1996, 2006, and 2206. It should be obvious which is applicable to any particular scene.
    Only time travel backwards is of interest – time travel forwards is no different than just disappearing for a while.
    I'm treating each portal as one “unit” – I.e. everything that enters the portal travels that timeline. It doesn't make any real difference, but it greatly simplifies the writing.
    Once backwards time travel has occurred, there is no need to continue the current timeline – it'll be changed by the time travel. Only once a stable time loop is formed should the current timeline be continued.
    Under standard alternate universe theory, ALL of these timelines happen. Under predestination/time loop theory, only the final timelime happens. Sonic '06 shows the final timeline.
    Also the Last Story breaks all of this, so I'm ignoring it.

    So, here we go:

    TIMELINE 1

    1996
    Solaris is split by scientists.
    Elise's father seals Mephiles in the Scepter of Darkness, and Iblis in Elise using the White Chaos Emerald. – Don't forget, this is the original timeline. Shadow and Silver haven't gone back in time yet. While it may not seem he was up to the task, the Duke seems to be absolutely determined to do whatever it takes to stop Iblis and Mephiles from escaping.

    2006
    Eggman travels to Soleanna; Sonic follows.
    Rouge retrieves the Scepter of Darkness.
    After a kerfuffle, the Scepter of Darkness is dropped.
    Mephiles is reborn from Shadow's shadow.
    Mephiles travels to the future alone. – As Shadow didn't seal Mephiles in the past, Mephiles has no idea who Shadow is, and has no need to exact his revenge on him.
    Shadow collects the Red Chaos Emerald. – It's a bit of a stretch, but if Shadow doesn't get thrown about time by Mephiles, he may, in his travels, stumble across the Red Chaos Emerald. It's the only reason I can think of for it being otherwise “freaking nowhere”, and it's the only way it works later on in the analysis. It's improbable, but certainly not infeasible, so I'm sticking with it.
    Eggman kidnaps Elise.
    Sonic gives Eggman the Blue Chaos Emerald.
    Eggman sends Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles to the future.
    Shadow seeks Eggman for answers about Mephiles, learns about Solaris in 1996.
    Elise, eventually realising Sonic isn't returning, cries and releases Iblis. – And even if it isn't over Sonic, she's bound to start crying sometime in her life.
    Iblis does what large fiery demigods do.

    2206
    Mephiles arrives.
    Mephiles collects the Violet Chaos Emerald.
    Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles arrive.
    Mephiles talks to Silver and Blaze. – More firepower, or just dramatic licence? You decide.
    Mephiles travels to the past with Silver and Blaze.

    TIMELINE 1A

    2006
    Silver arrives. Blaze and Mephiles arrive elsewhere.
    Eggman travels to Soleanna; Sonic follows.
    Rouge retrieves the Scepter of Darkness.
    After a kerfuffle, the Scepter of Darkness is dropped.
    Mephiles is reborn from Shadow's shadow.
    Mephiles travels to the future alone.
    Shadow collects the Red Chaos Emerald.
    Eggman kidnaps Elise.
    Sonic fights Silver.
    Sonic gives Eggman the Blue Chaos Emerald.
    Eggman sends Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles to the future.
    Shadow seeks Eggman for answers about Mephiles, learns about Solaris in 1996.
    Silver and Blaze collect the Blue Chaos Emerald from Eggman's Base.
    Shadow fights Silver.
    Shadow and Silver travel to the past using Shadow's Red and Silver's Blue. – This is why Shadow needs the Red Chaos Emerald. It seems to be established that it takes two Chaos Emeralds to create a time portal.

    TIMELINE 2

    1996
    Shadow and Silver arrive.
    Solaris is split by scientists.
    Shadow seals Mephiles in the Scepter of Darkness.
    Silver helps Elise's father seal Iblis in Elise using the White Chaos Emerald.
    Shadow and Silver travel to the future using Shadow's Red and Silver's Blue, leaving Scepter of Darkness and Blue Chaos Emerald behind.

    2006
    Eggman travels to Soleanna; Sonic follows.
    Rouge retrieves the Scepter of Darkness.
    After a kerfuffle, the Scepter of Darkness is dropped.
    Mephiles is reborn from Shadow's shadow.
    Mephiles travels to the future with Shadow and Rouge. – Now Mephiles recognises Shadow, as he was the one that sealed him, not Duke.
    Eggman kidnaps Elise.
    Sonic gives Eggman the Blue Chaos Emerald.
    Eggman sends Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles to the future.
    Shadow and Silver arrive. – This will get more confusing as in later timelines they come back from the past they never go to.
    Elise, eventually realising Sonic isn't returning, cries and releases Iblis.
    Iblis does what large fiery demigods do.

    2206
    Shadow and Rouge arrive. Mephiles arrives elsewhere.
    Mephiles collects the Violet Chaos Emerald.
    Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles arrive.
    Mephiles talks to Silver and Blaze.
    Mephiles travels to the past with Silver and Blaze.

    TIMELINE 2A

    2006
    Silver arrives. Blaze and Mephiles arrive elsewhere.
    Eggman travels to Soleanna; Sonic follows.
    Rouge retrieves the Scepter of Darkness.
    After a kerfuffle, the Scepter of Darkness is dropped.
    Mephiles is reborn from Shadow's shadow.
    Mephiles travels to the future with Shadow and Rouge.
    Eggman kidnaps Elise.
    Sonic fights Silver.
    Sonic gives Eggman the Blue Chaos Emerald.
    Eggman sends Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles to the future.
    Silver and Blaze collect the Blue Chaos Emerald from Eggman's Base.
    Shadow and Silver arrive. – Yes, now there are two Silvers. But don't worry, that's perfectly normal in a still-forming time loop.
    Elise, eventually realising Sonic isn't returning, cries and releases Iblis.
    Iblis does what large fiery demigods do.

    2206
    Shadow and Rouge arrive, Mephiles arrives elsewhere.
    Mephiles collects the Violet Chaos Emerald.
    Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles arrive.
    Mephiles talks to Silver and Blaze.
    Mephiles travels to the past with Silver and Blaze.
    --- Note that at this point, Timeline 2A repeats itself continuously, but with increasingly small changes (Convergence). Eventually those leaving for the past are identical to those arriving in the past, so I consider it a Stable Time Loop at that point and continue with the analysis.
    Shadow and Rouge collect the Green Chaos Emerald.
    Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles collect the Cyan Chaos Emerald.
    Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Rouge travel to the past using Sonic's Cyan and Shadow's Green.

    TIMELINE 2B

    2006
    ...
    Sonic gives Eggman the Blue Chaos Emerald.
    Eggman sends Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles to the future.
    Silver and Blaze collect the Blue Chaos Emerald from Eggman's Base.
    Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles arrive.
    Rouge arrives.
    Rouge gives Omega the Green Chaos Emerald. – Rouge seems fairly smart to me; I'm sure she could work out, without seeing Omega in the future, that you can just tell a robot to hold on to something and then go to sleep for fifty years.
    Sonic rescues Elise.
    Silver attacks Sonic.
    Without Shadow to save him, Sonic is killed. – Because Shadow is “still” in the future.
    Elise cries and releases Iblis.
    Iblis does what large fiery demigods do.
    Shadow and Silver arrive. – Nice timing. Next time you return from the past you never went to, make sure you do it before the hero gets killed.

    2206
    Shadow and Rouge arrive, Mephiles arrives elsewhere.
    Mephiles collects the Violet Chaos Emerald.
    Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles arrive.
    Mephiles talks to Silver and Blaze.
    Mephiles travels to the past with Silver and Blaze. --> 2A
    Shadow and Rouge find Omega on standby.
    Shadow and Rouge collect the Green Chaos Emerald.
    Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles collect the Cyan Chaos Emerald.
    Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Rouge travel to the past using Sonic's Cyan and Shadow's Green. --> 2B
    Shadow fights Crystal Meph.
    Omega gives Shadow the Green Chaos Emerald.
    Omega fights Crystal Meph.
    Crystal Meph flees to the past, Shadow and Omega follow.

    TIMELINE 2C

    2006
    ...
    Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles arrive.
    Rouge arrives.
    Rouge gives Omega the Green Chaos emerald.
    Shadow and Omega arrive. Mephiles arrives elsewhere.
    Shadow seeks Eggman for answers about Mephiles, learns about Solaris in 1996.
    Sonic rescues Elise.
    Silver attacks Sonic.
    Shadow saves Sonic.
    Eggman kidnaps Elise.
    Shadow fights Silver.
    Shadow and Silver travel to the past using Shadow's Green and Silver's Blue.

    TIMELINE 3

    1996
    Shadow and Silver arrive.
    Solaris is split by scientists.
    Shadow seals Mephiles in the Scepter of Darkness.
    Silver helps Elise's father seal Iblis in Elise using the White Chaos Emerald.
    Shadow and Silver travel to the future using Shadow's Green and Silver's Blue, leaving Scepter of Darkness and Blue Chaos Emerald behind. – And after time has run its course, the once-necessary Red Chaos Emerald is now nowhere in the story at all.

    2006
    Eggman travels to Soleanna; Sonic follows.
    Rouge retrieves the Scepter of Darkness.
    After a kerfuffle, the Scepter of Darkness is dropped.
    Mephiles is reborn from Shadow's shadow.
    Mephiles travels to the future with Shadow and Rouge.
    Eggman kidnaps Elise.
    Sonic gives Eggman the Blue Chaos Emerald.
    Eggman sends Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles to the future.
    Shadow and Silver arrive.
    Elise, eventually realising Sonic isn't returning, cries and releases Iblis.
    Iblis does what large fiery demigods do.

    2206
    Shadow and Rouge arrive. Mephiles arrives elsewhere.
    Mephiles collects the Violet Chaos Emerald.
    Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles arrive.
    Mephiles talks to Silver and Blaze.
    Mephiles travels to the past with Silver and Blaze.
    --- Timelines 3A-3C repeat here as 2A-2C did…

    TIMELINE 3C

    2006
    ...
    Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles arrive.
    Rouge arrives.
    Rouge gives Omega the Green Chaos emerald.
    Shadow and Omega arrive.
    Shadow seeks Eggman for answers about Mephiles, learns about Solaris in 1996.
    Sonic rescues Elise.
    Silver attacks Sonic.
    Shadow saves Sonic.
    Eggman kidnaps Elise.
    Shadow fights Silver.
    Shadow and Silver travel to the past using Shadow's Green and Silver's Blue. --> 3
    Shadow and Silver arrive.
    Sonic and Silver don't make it to the Egg Carrier on time.
    Sonic travels to the past using Sonic's Cyan and Silver's White.

    TIMELINE 3D (FINAL)

    1996
    Shadow and Silver arrive.
    Solaris is split by scientists.
    Shadow seals Mephiles in the Scepter of Darkness.
    Silver helps Elise's father seal Iblis in Elise using the White Chaos Emerald.
    Shadow and Silver travel to the future using Shadow's Green and Silver's Blue, leaving Scepter of Darkness and Blue Chaos Emerald behind.

    2006
    Silver arrives. Blaze and Mephiles arrive elsewhere.
    Eggman travels to Soleanna; Sonic follows.
    Rouge retrieves the Scepter of Darkness.
    After a kerfuffle, the Scepter of Darkness is dropped.
    Mephiles is reborn from Shadow's shadow.
    Mephiles travels to the future with Shadow and Rouge.
    Eggman kidnaps Elise.
    Sonic fights Silver.
    Sonic gives Eggman the Blue Chaos Emerald.
    Eggman sends Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles to the future.
    Silver and Blaze collect the Blue Chaos Emerald from Eggman's Base.
    Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles arrive.
    Rouge arrives.
    Rouge gives Omega the Green Chaos Emerald.
    Shadow and Omega arrive.
    Shadow seeks Eggman for answers about Mephiles, learns about Solaris in 1996.
    Sonic rescues Elise.
    Silver attacks Sonic.
    Shadow saves Sonic.
    Eggman kidnaps Elise.
    Shadow fights Silver.
    Shadow and Silver travel to the past using Shadow's Green and Silver's Blue. --> 3
    Sonic arrives.
    Shadow and Silver arrive.
    Sonic rescues Elise from the Egg Carrier.
    Sonic and Silver don't make it to the Egg Carrier on time.
    Sonic travels to the past using Sonic's Cyan and Silver's White. --> 3D
    Silver and Blaze travel to the future through the same portal.
    Crystal Meph collects Yellow Chaos Emerald.
    Shadow fights Crstal Meph II.
    Crystal Meph steals Shadow's Green Chaos Emerald during the fight.
    (Anything that happens past this point is part of the last story, which I've previously mentioned messes everything up.)

    2206
    Shadow and Rouge arrive, Mephiles arrives elsewhere.
    Mephiles collects the Violet Chaos Emerald.
    Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles arrive.
    Mephiles talks to Silver and Blaze.
    Mephiles travels to the past with Silver and Blaze. --> 3A
    Shadow and Rouge find Omega on standby.
    Shadow and Rouge collect the Green Chaos Emerald.
    Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles collect the Cyan Chaos Emerald.
    Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Rouge travel to the past using Sonic's Cyan and Shadow's Green. --> 3B
    Shadow fights Crystal Meph.
    Omega gives Shadow the Green Chaos Emerald.
    Omega fights Crystal Meph.
    Crystal Meph flees to the past, Shadow and Omega follow. --> 3C
    Silver and Blaze arrive.
    Silver fights Iblis.
    Blaze seals Iblis within her and sends herself to another dimension using the Cyan and White Chaos Emeralds.

    And there you have it. Anything you feel needs expanding upon, feel free to let me know.
     
  2. Levi Church

    Levi Church

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    I'm watching the cutscenes of Black Knight right now. Kinda weird that Sonic wants it to be Halloween for a year since he just got freed from being a Werehog for awhile.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  3. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    The Japanese script has it as:
    "He's trying to turn the whole world into a haunted house?
    Hahah, that'll save me the trouble of going to an amusement park."

    Sonic Colours foreshadowing? :V
     
  4. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

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    Ok, So I just finished the game and we seriously need to talk about the implications on lore.

    • The Chaos Emeralds come from another planet but The Master Emerald comes from Earth. A lot of people are taking it as The Ancients created the Chaos Emeralds, but do we know that for sure? If they did, why is "The controller", "The one that unifies the chaos" found on a whole different planet?
    • What was left of the Ancients apparently mutated into Chao (though it's left somewhat vague in the game itself). It was only after exposure to the emeralds that the Chao that would become Chaos transformed back into a form akin to The Ancients.
    • An Eldritch Abomination known as The End has been released from its prison and is now poised to be a recurring threat to Sonic and Co. I mentions it's more powerful than the "gods" Sonic has defeated for it's nothing, but is it more powerful than Solaris which controlled time and space?
    Definitely food for thought. It also occurs to me that following this game the "Nature vs. Technology" theme the series has had has evolved into a "Chaos vs. Order" theme based on The End's intent: "All the teeming chaos of creation? Brought to order. To neutrality. To nothing."
     
  5. David The Lurker

    David The Lurker

    For some mysterious reason... Administrator
    The game never says outright that the Ancients created the Chaos Emeralds. All we know is that they were in space, and that the Ancients used them while on their planet. They could have been forged by them, or they could have existed as long as the universe has. If that's the case, then it's just by happenstance the Chaos Emeralds landed on one planet, and the Master Emerald on another. This is assuming there's only the eight gemstones - maybe there are other sets of Chaos Emeralds, or other Master Emeralds, scattered throughout the universe. By answering one question about the emeralds, many more have been poised - which I'd rather have, instead of anything concrete.

    The Chao being the remains of the Ancients...kinda bothers me. A highly advanced sentient species have become pets. er. um. Are we meant to believe the fact Chaos is a mutated Chao is still canon at this point? I don't know if it's been addressed anywhere outside of Eggman's revelation in Frontiers. Just something is weird about it, is all.

    I do not know if it's meant to be more powerful than Solaris, but I'd imagine any Eldritch Abomination isn't going to say it's weaker than something else. It said that it was trapped in Cyberspace since time immemorial, but Sage said the Ancients arrived on Earth ten's of thousands of years ago. That...is a much shorter amount of time.

    Should I even ask what you make of the blue Chaos Emerald in the past, and what happens in Shadow's story versus Silver's...
     
  6. Starduster

    Starduster

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    To be fair chickens are descended from dinosaurs so yeah I can buy Chao being descended from the Ancients. Sure, the comparison’s not 1:1 because the Ancients were much more intelligent bur it doesn’t have to be entirely realistic. I think it also works with Chaos better if we work under the assumption that the Ancients didn’t create the Emeralds. Perhaps the Master Emerald exposure brings out what is already latent. That does, however, beg the question of why Knuckles hasn’t experienced any I’ll effects from being exposed to the Master Emerald for all his life. With that said, I don’t think we necessarily know that Chaos mutated within Tikal’s lifetime so maybe it’s a process that occurs over a great deal of years and is only possible within Chao due to their unique reincarnation cycle.
     
  7. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    There's a small break we can sneak it out of the time loop.

    [​IMG]

    Both Sonic and Silver's White Acropolis' take place around the same time, on the second night of the game: seems odd that Robotnik would use the Chaos Emerald for time travel, brag about having the Chaos Emerald... and then immediately dump it on the ground outside his base, where Silver just happens upon it.

    I would suggest that the actual course of events for the blue Chaos Emerald are not a time loop:

    Silver discovers it outside the White Acropolis.
    Silver uses it to travel to the past.
    Silver gives it to Elise.
    Elise holds onto this Chaos Emerald for 10 years.
    Elise throws it to Sonic.
    Sonic passes it to Robotnik.

    As for Silver jumping through the portal with the Chaos Emerald in hand straight after Shadow, I would assume it's a Sonic Adventure case where we're seeing things from the other character's POV. Shadow has no reason to think Silver would hang back and hand over the Chaos Emerald, so doesn't 'see' it.
     
  8. Levi Church

    Levi Church

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    Clearly the reason why it turned a Chao into Chaos is the same reason why it turned Chris into a kid again. It reverts the user back to their most marketable forms which is why it doesn't work on Knuckles.
     
  9. shilz

    shilz

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    All I hear is "Iizuka is deathly afraid of that kid who shouted "is that Sonic.exe" at the sight of Shadow the Hedgehog"
    I know Super Emeralds still don't exist, but I can't help but think of the implications for them. it almost makes me think that the Master Emerald could hypothetically just be part of a set of 7 that are spread out even further than the Chaos Emeralds get spread out.
     
  10. Levi Church

    Levi Church

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    The Super Emeralds are canon, Iizuka said they are "still in another dimension".
    1:38
     
  11. shilz

    shilz

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    Iizuka >: (
     
  12. The KKM

    The KKM

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    how dare he try and prevent a dragonball-like absurd escalation of transformations for transformation's sake
    the super emeralds are terrible, super sonic is enough
     
  13. Only for viewing

    Only for viewing

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    people do like hyper sonic so it's a bit of a shame to snub it out but yeah I wouldn't go with the powerscaling nonsense as a very prominent element in the series either, which is pretty much the suggestion any time something from a prior game is referenced
     
  14. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

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    Sage mentions in the game that the Ancients had a hard time adapting to the planet and their settlements kept changing which is why they aren't on the map data. Could be that an ambient form of radiation on Earth's surface affected them but doesn't affect native life since it's indigenous. The Master Emerald could somehow counteract that and negate the effects of the mutation returning a subject to their original energy-based morphology. Chaos energy could even be the reason they existed as beings of pure energy (in liquid form?) in the first place.
     
  15. Starduster

    Starduster

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    I’m glad somebody has finally said it. Hyper Sonic is functionally a neat bonus in S3&K but it has absolutely no story function, especially when Super is already canonically invincible. At least something like Darkspines has its own specific trigger methods and is functionally distinct from other forms.

    I also don’t think Hyper would have nearly the kind of cache that it does without Nazo Unleashed using it pretty terrifically, which tracks given that it aped DBZ to do it.
     
  16. shilz

    shilz

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    My last comment was more for the comedy of it, what I mean is that it's funny that this stuff keeps changing to the point I forgot the last time it changed. I wasn't saying whether I thought they should be or not (which honestly I think they should be if a really cool idea comes along for them but for now it doesn't really matter cuz it's just Word of God)

    It's funny, though, that because their designs are based on Chaos 0 and Chaos' tail has never been officially depicted, the ancients don't have tails even though it'd make sense for them to. You could say they don't because Chao have tails anyways, but then where's Chaos' wings?
     
  17. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Well, working under the hypothesis that Chao are evolved from the Ancients, they likely picked up wings and tails to compensate for their less physically adept bodies, so it makes sense for the Ancients not to have them and for Chaos to lose them when brought back to a form similar to his ancestors. It *does* however raise the question of what’s going on with Chaos after absorbing the Emeralds.
     
  18. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    8:51 - If Classic and Modern are one timeline again how will that be explained in the next game or in frontiers or a tails tube, #knowingsmile works so at least something is being done to explain that mess?

    Ian said there's no need to explain it because the games never said there were two timelines, and that was a fanon interpretation of the "Sonic from another dimension" from Forces.
    [I will pretend Ian didn't say in an old episode of Bumblekast that he was working under the assumption that a split happened after Generations, cause I remember that]
    However he ended with a #KnowingSmile.
     
  19. Levi Church

    Levi Church

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    Should the poll at the top of this thread be edited or something since it's no longer relevant?
     
  20. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

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    That poll was my doing in one of the two threads that became this one, but I no longer have access to edit it.