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The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    See, the issue there is Tails and Robotnik discuss it like it's the one Infinite's had, the one with the power issues:

    Honestly, how I feel and have maintained how they should handle it: Sonic Mania's Phantom Ruby is the original, Robotnik built a copy that we see in Sonic Forces. Quick, easy and saves a headache.
     
  2. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    I interpret this dialogue as Death Egg's Phantom Ruby being the real one, as it doesn't need an energy supply.

    I don't remember the details of your idea. How did Eggman create a copy of the Phantom Ruby without having it?
     
  3. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    Infinite had the real ruby until his final defeat, then Eggman took it back and put it on the final Death Egg Robot. I don't see the contradiction here?
     
  4. Plorpus

    Plorpus

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    The contradiction is that the one in the death egg robot is apparently the original and the one on Infinite is the final model. It seems that the latter is absorbed into the former after the final Infinite fight, but it’s not explained. As for the original needing a power source… who knows. Probably something they overlooked when changing the Valtron to the Phantom Ruby when rewriting the script.
     
  5. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member

    I'm looking at this again.
    Mirage Saloon should be real, not because it makes more sense, but because it's a brand new level and it shouldn't be relegated to an illusion. But it's awkard if it were located on Angel Island, so...

    ANGEL ISLAND
    Angel Island - real
    Green Hill - illusion (Phantom Ruby was used)
    Chemical Plant - illusion (Phantom Ruby was used)
    Studiopolis - real (although a pipe in Chemical Plant leads to Studiopolis, which could be believed to be a continuation of the illusion, they are on Angel Island because they manage to reach Flying Battery)
    Flying Battery - real

    [the Flying Battery flies from Angel Island towards West Side Island]

    WEST SIDE ISLAND
    Press Garden - real
    Stardust Speedway - illusion (Phantom Ruby was used)
    Hydrocity - illusion (Phantom Ruby was used)
    Mirage Saloon - real (they came flying from wherever they were)
    Oil Ocean - real

    [they go back to Angel Island via submarine]

    ANGEL ISLAND
    Lava Reef-Hidden Palace - real

    [from here they go to Little Planet which was attached to Angel Island because I said so]

    LITTLE PLANET
    Metallic Madness - real
    Titanic Monarch - real

    In this approach, only the levels with Phantom Ruby transitions were illusions, and all the others were real. It looks nice to me that way, it's a simple concept.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2022
  6. Plorpus

    Plorpus

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    There’s nothing within Sonic Mania itself to suggest any of it is an illusion rather than teleportation.

    Angel Island: Intro, then warp to…
    South Island: GHZ, warp to…
    Westside Island: Chemical Plant, then Studiopolis via a pipe. Next, Flying Battery carries them to…
    Unknown: Press Garden. Could be on Westside or maybe somewhere completely different. Eggman locates Metal Sonic on Little Planet at the end, using the Phantom Ruby to teleport them there/teleports Little Planet to above Angel Island as seen in Lava Reef.
    Little Planet: Stardust Speedway, then teleport to…
    Angel Island: Hydro City, then take the tornado that was left nearby (AIZ in the intro) to Mirage Saloon Zone.
    If Mania’s Oil Ocean is meant to be the same place as in Sonic 2 these would be on Westside Island, but if it’s just an identical oil refinery made by Eggman it could be on Angel Island. The surroundings during the transition from MSZ and the fact that the submarine/ship from the end flies right into Lava Reef leads me to think it’s the latter.
    Then you have Lava Reef on Angel Island, where you take a rocket to…
    Little Planet: Metallic Madness, then Titanic Monarch.
     
  7. Only for viewing

    Only for viewing

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    the intention is probably for studiopolis and mirage saloon to both be in west side island, cause one is the city seen in chemical plant and the other is dust hill
     
  8. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Art...always art...
    Also Oil Ocean is very much on the same landmass as Mirage Saloon. Knuckles’ intro certainly causes problems, but I’d personally handwave it as the Ruby making time-space fucky to the point of the Heavies phasing between GHZ and AIZ.

    On the Ruby itself, I’m another proponent of Mania’s Ruby being the original and that’s in fact how I understood the scenario until reading about the prototypes on Retro. Personally, I feel the idea is far more intuitive, allows Classic to exist in Forces and be sent home when needed despite the prototypes being destroyed and overall makes Mania/Forces a more cohesive narrative as told from the point of the Phantom Ruby.
     
  9. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    Wasn't the final ruby the original after being cut and refined by Eggman? Where are people getting that it was a copy from? Some line in Forces that I missed?
     
  10. Pengi

    Pengi

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    As has been mentioned, you see the raw ore in the final boss robot.
     
  11. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Got some scans during Sonic Mania, which also resulted in him accidentally 'copying' Classic Sonic over.

    Infinite had the 'final prototype', aka an artificially created one, not the original Phantom Ruby.

    I have no idea what Sonic Team were planning with this plot...

    Other than Robotnik having total domination and freedom to build in places like Angel Island's Hidden Palace?
     
  12. Pengi

    Pengi

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    The concept art doesn't call it a prototype. It is the finished product.
     
  13. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Alright. Point is, it's one of the Phantom Rubies that were grown. So we've got:
    • Sonic Mania's Phantom Ruby (???)
    • The Original Phantom Ruby (Rise of Infinite, Stress Test)
    • Avatar's Phantom Ruby Prototype (grown)
    • Infinite's Phantom Ruby Copy (grown)
    Infinite's Phantom Ruby is then used in the Death Egg Robot for Sonic Forces, confirmed in-game, meaning the original Phantom Ruby Robotnik found in Rise of Infinite is still unaccounted for.
     
  14. _Sidle

    _Sidle

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    Unsure what you mean. It doesn't look any different to the rest of Mirage Saloon, and the stage doesn't resemble Sandopolis or Desert Palace much.

    upload_2022-9-24_10-38-56.png upload_2022-9-24_10-38-13.png
    upload_2022-9-24_10-40-50.png upload_2022-9-24_11-19-43.png upload_2022-9-24_11-21-5.png

    The Oil Ocean submarine/ship also seems to fly incredibly quickly (always puts a smile on my face just seeing it slam into the lava at ludicrous speeds) [+], so it being capable of making Westside/Angel Island transit never seemed too farfetched to me.

    Why is that an issue? Knuckles can't exactly enforce anything on Angel island if he's not ON Angel Island... like in Mania, where he's forcibly teleported off of it. That's the easiest excuse you can have for that.

    Mania Adventures establishes a base in the mountains of Angel Island [+] built at an unknown time. (during Mania? post-Mania during Sonic's absence?)
    Knuckles eventually finds this base, but doesn't end up destroying it. [+] (kind of like how Launch Base was still more or less how it was between the 3K Sonic story post-Death Egg extraction and Knuckles story).

    I didn't have a point to make with this, just remembered it out of the blue.
     
  15. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    I would imagine it takes longer to build the giant towers you see, but fair point.

    Counterpoint is the return of the Knuckles Cutscene, when we see the EggRobos on Angel Island with the Phantom Ruby after they, Sonic and Tails, and have been 'teleported' to Green Hill Zone.
     
  16. charcoal

    charcoal

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    I always assumed it was all an illusion, because how else would Sonic be able to show up in the past of Stardust Speedway without any cutscene to indicate he was time traveling to the past prior? He only ever time travels to the present for act 2, which doesn't make any sense if it's all actually real. The only explanation other than illusions is that the entire game up to that point takes place in the past, which doesn't make sense either, since wouldn't Sonic run into the version of himself from Sonic CD?
     
  17. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    I'd say the fact Eggman's bases from the old games are seemingly still around and active in Mania suggests either illusions or reality warping. And what about the island on the title screen?

    I agree. I find the notion that the flying sub took the player to Angel Island much easier to swallow than AI having trains and western saloons. Where are people even getting the impression AI would be populous enough to have those from? Archie? :V
     
  18. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    Wait, was it confirmed in-game? I only remember Infinite flying away.

    But even if Mirage Saloon is a real place on Angel Island, it could have been built by Eggman. I would guess Carnival Night was built by Eggman.
     
  19. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Robotnik and Tails talk about the Phantom Ruby no longer having the energy issues that were brought up several times in the plot. They treat it as the same one we've seen all game, not a different one without the issues.

    Sonic Adventure, where there's a town on Angel Island's Ice Cap Zone. I've suggested a headcanon that Angel Island's dropped next to a mountain town, but as that's headcanon: Angel Island's Ice Cap has a full town on it.
     
  20. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    Hmm. I'm not sure if this confirms it, but then again, there are so many Phantom Rubies in Forces that I can't even argue against.