The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

Where do you stand on the split timeline?

  1. Makes sense

    19 vote(s)
    24.7%
  2. I hate it

    28 vote(s)
    36.4%
  3. It's alternate dimensions, not split timelines

    9 vote(s)
    11.7%
  4. Doesn't matter either way

    21 vote(s)
    27.3%
  1. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Honestly, no. If you remember, the series had two worlds to work with in the western world: Earth and Mobius. Even if they were to drop the name Mobius, it's still two different worlds they could have used to justify the two worlds concept, yet they removed Mobius with extreme prejudice and made everything on Earth: Humans refer to the Angel Island and Little Planet Incidents, dragging everything over to the one world, and the Echidna were on Earth 4,000 years ago, with the Chaos Emeralds on pedestals and not in active usage to cause a Chaos Control result like Sonic X suggests as causing the dimension hopping.

    Again, the only game that started this two worlds crap is Sonic Colours, which damages the continuity of every Sonic game before it. Sonic Adventure's backstory falls apart, Sonic Rush makes no sense in why everyone's surprised Blaze comes from another dimension, considering everyone has done it before and were apparently dancing over the dimensional barrier, including a G.U.N. Fleet managing to make its way over to Sonic's World, or Blaze making her way to Earth which, again, makes it confusing when everyone is surprised she's from another dimension considering they're literally in the same boat.
     
  2. SuperSonicRider

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    About this, in the video, that seems to be a joke by Kyle regarding Ian's mention of Silver's future not really making sense since '06.

    I'm not sure what to speak on regarding worlds, but it seems like, after '06 is erased, Silver's future is safe until the plot of whatever game (or comic book arc) demands that he comes back to present to resolve whatever disaster is going on in the future. (Or, he just wanted to check out amusement park rides, as in Colors DS).
     
  3. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Silver came from the future to capture Eggman Nega, according to Sonic Rivals. They should have just kept him in the present and say his world was wiped out by the Ifrit in Sonic Rivals 2: he has nothing to go back to, so he stays in the present to make sure another calamity doesn't befall the world and cause another future like his.
     
  4. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    Forces confirmed two huge retcons that Sonic Team has been implementing over the past 10 years. The first is about Classic Sonic: he was the past of Modern Sonic but now he comes from another dimension and always has. The second is about Sonic's home planet: it was planet Earth but now it is another planet, without humans, and always was.

    The way these retcons were made is horrendous, because it destroys the plot of both Generations and Adventure, two of the three most beloved 3D Sonic games.

    To solve the first retcon, the fans came up with an idea. Instead of simply canceling out what was said in Generations, the idea of a split timeline was born. Thus, Classic Sonic was really the past of Modern Sonic, but now he belongs to another timeline, that is, another dimension.

    Is there a problem with this explanation? Not really. The only problem is SegaSonic the Hedgehog: in this split-timeline concept, the game also belongs to Modern Sonic's past, but that's unlikely. However, this game barely has a plot, so it is irrelevant whether it belongs to the past or not, compared to the benefit of this proposal. I'm not saying that we need this segregation between Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic, but since it exists, this approach is much better than that of Sonic Team.

    Now, how to save the second retcon without destroying what was said in Sonic Adventure? Again, I'm not saying we need this, but since it exists, how do you solve it?

    At the moment, my headcanon says this: in the Sonic 2 manual it is said that people in the West Side Island used the Chaos Emeralds in the wrong way and fucked up. I'm considering that this was Sonic's home planet (not Earth) and many thousands of years ago the inhabitants of the island used Chaos Control (intentionally or not) and blew it, and ended up teleporting some islands to another place in the universe. In this case, planet Earth. At the end of Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow and Sonic made that huge Chaos Control and, as an unexpected consequence, fixed the moon and took the islands back to their home planet.

    Is there a problem with this explanation? I don't know.
    chao humans - Copia.png
     
  5. Sid Starkiller

    Sid Starkiller

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    It's simple to me: just undo it. Every time Iizuka says "two worlds" or something related, smack him in the nose with a rolled up newspaper. "No! No! Bad Iizuka! Bad!"

    There's no need to try to patch it when it can be safely removed.
     
  6. Blue Blood

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    The whole "two worlds" bollocks has never been established or even vaguely shown in the games. If you don't go around the internet looking for interviews with Mr Iizuka, you wouldn't even know it was a thing. Forces has anthros and no humans, whilst other games largely do not. Chalk that up simply as a difference in what is seen vs what actually exists and there, problem solved. We can forget the two worlds crap was ever considered.

    The best solution is just to ignore it.
     
  7. Josh

    Josh

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    Man, it's like Archie could see the future.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. big smile

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    Does this need it's own thread, especially when there is already a thread about continuity?

    Also, from the sounds of it, travel between the human & Sonic worlds seems to be quite easy. They just hop between them, a bit like how we can easily travel between different parts of the country. And we've seen Angel Island float around, so it must have floated between the worlds as well, which explains why it's on Earth in the Adventure games.

    So yeah sucks, and it's a very dumb idea, but it's also not a major issue.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
  9. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    SEGA of America, at the very least, has turned the entire Classic Era into an alternate dimension.

    Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) and Sonic Unleashed has everyone still kicking about Earth. Sonic Rush is also indicated to be on Earth.

    Shouldn't this be the Three Worlds Scenario?
    1. Sonic's World
    2. Human World
    3. Classic World
    Right, so let's break this down.

    According to how SEGA are handling this travesty, we have the three dimensions: the World of Sonic, the World of Humans, and the World of Classic.

    So lets try and list everything as much as we can:

    World of Sonic:
    • Sonic Heroes
    • Sonic Rivals
    • Sonic Rivals 2
    • Sonic Colours
    • Sonic Generations
    • Sonic Lost World
    • Sonic Forces
    Human World:
    • Sonic Adventure
    • Sonic Adventure 2
    • Shadow the Hedgehog
    • Sonic Rush
    • Sonic the Hedgehog (2006)
    • Sonic Unleashed
    Classic World:
    • Sonic the Hedgehog (MD)
    • Sonic the Hedgehog CD
    • Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (MD)
    • Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles
    • Sonic Mania
    • Chaotix

    That seems reasonable, right? Sonic Heroes features no Humans, so likelihood is Iizuka's going to pretend it was set on the World of Sonic from the beginning. Sonic Rivals features no Humans, so we'll put it in there just to try and pad out Iizuka's world beyond five games.

    Sonic Rush, meanwhile, features a G.U.N. fleet as the level Huge Crisis Zone, meaning unless they went through whatever Iizuka will claim is how they move between dimensions, Sonic Rush is set on Earth. Sonic Rush Adventure, meanwhile, is set on Blaze's World. The rest, obviously, feature Humans, so...

    So how is this all a problem? Well, this is where Sonic Adventure comes in. Iizuka claims this is where the Two World Scienario, later Three, started, hence the story in Sonic X detailing this. The problem, Sonic Adventure heavily disagrees.

    1. Sonic Adventure states Sonic is coming back from a long journey, implicitly after the events of the Classic Era. There is no mention of a dimension hop, which could have been mentioned in the manual and easily tied to the already existing Two Worlds of Earth and Mobius found in the Western Continuity. Mobius was instead struck from the canon completely, despite them incorporating elements such as Dr. Ivo Robotnik into the Japanese canon: why would you strike the concept of a second world Sonic hails from from the canon, when that's what has actually happened?
    2. Amy is featured in the game. In it, she complains about how boring Station Square is, wishing for adventure with Sonic once more, while reminiscing about the events of Sonic the Hedgehog CD. This implies she has been there for a while, which is weird as A) that means she's jumped dimensions to set up a home in Station Square, as she's going to eat her groceries somewhere, and B) She'll have likely been there since the Classic Era, since that's what she's reminiscing about. So she jumped a dimension a few years ago to get a home in the World of Humans? Why? And if it was an accident, why isn't that mentioned?
    3. The Echidna Tribe have ruins in the Mystic Ruins. The newest looking thing in those Ruins is Tails' home: the Train Station is rickety and looks old, but it also links up to Station Square, meaning it's a Human construct and not part of Angel Island, as I'm sure some would claim to try and patch up the hole there. Those ruins are about 4,000 years old, and in the flash backs had Angel Island on the ground. This means Angel Island is part of the Human World, not the World of Sonic.
    Not to mention it ties itself to the Classic Era:
    1. As mentioned, Amy reminisces about the events of Sonic the Hedgehog CD. While they use the Adventure models, I'm fairly certain that's due to space and time: Sonic Adventure was rushed, and 1GB of disc space still had space as a premium on the disc. They also use Windy Valley and the Egg Carrier for backdrops, rather than trying to create new locations based on the Little Planet. And while they had a Classic Sonic and Tails model on the disc, it was kept at a distance due to their being hold overs from the SEGA Saturn: bringing them front and centre on your new, more powerful hardware? No.
    2. In the room with Robotnik's "Awesome Game!", the Robotnik dolls feature his classic design. Considering that is an easy texture change, I don't know why he'd have the classic design if that design never existed in this world.
    3. The Humans are well aware of what happened with both the Little Planet and Angel Island: one NPC asks Sonic if he was really involved with those incidents. This pretty much places all but Sonic the Hedgehog (MD) on Earth, as why would Humans care about something happening on another world or even know?
    So Sonic Adventure? Not exactly the starting point for this alleged split, and I view it as insulting for Iizuka to claim as such: the producers of the Adventure Era Sonic Team made a somewhat consistent continuity and world, and he's forcing his ideas onto that in order to rip it to pieces because "lol, continuity sux!!!" That's why I'm so angry with the subject: I don't like insults.

    The Sonic Rush Duology actually gives us a look at Dimensional Travel in the games themselves. Blaze comes over to Sonic's World in Sonic Rush and vice versa in Sonic Rush Adventure. Sonic Rush, again, features a G.U.N. Fleet in a level, indicating it's set in the same world as Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic the Hedgehog (2006), aka Earth. Cream proceeds to refer to the ongoing dimensional collapse as "what will happen to our two worlds?"

    Sonic Rush Adventure, meanwhile, has Sonic and Tails surprised they've been drawn into Blaze's World. Why? They've apparently been doing the cha cha slide between two dimensions already, why is that instance so shocking?

    All in all, it's a ridiculous idea that hurts everything before the Iizuka Era of Uncertainty. But they're going to force it into the series whether we like it or not, because what do we fans know? So there's no fix but to just watch this trainwreck happen.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
  10. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Honestly, the only, only way I'd consider these splits to be good ideas would be if they're building up to a plot where it's revealed that no, that's not natural, someone's mucking around with the universe and ripping it to pieces, one shred of the world at a time. First the Humans, then the Classic, etc.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
  11. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    It's still a videogame, right? Did something happen to make it become sentient? Is it affecting our food supplies? What's going on?
     
  12. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    It's because we think the series deserves better. Mock us all you want, you're the one letting someone make bad calls on said video game: it's only a matter of time before those calls start weighing it down, such as Sonic Forces' forcing Classic Sonic into the plot and chopping the levels into pieces as has happened in that game and Sonic Colours, to that games detriment if I recall correctly.

    It's a good idea to watch how they handle the story as that gives you an idea on how they're treating the game in question.

    If you're so aghast at the idea that people like a continuity, I believe the Super Mario franchise would be better for you: very little continuity there.
     
  13. Fred

    Fred

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    What are you going to do about it? Sign a petition? Not buy the video game? No, of course you'll do it anyway.
     
  14. Pengi

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    There's a part of the GameInformer interview that people tend to overlook:

    The only pre-established thing that we can compare this to is Sonic X, which Sonic Team were heavily involved with.

    In Sonic X, the backstory is that a long time ago Sonic's world and Earth used to be one, but for some reason they split into two different worlds and dimensions, each with its own timeline. During the course of the show the worlds were reunited, due to several Chaos Controls. However, if the worlds were left reunited the two timelines would interfere with each other and time would freeze, so they decide to split them again. 6 years later, Chris travels through an experimental portal machine to Sonic's world, and finds that only 6 months have passed there.

    When Iizuka talks about there being "some crossover", it might be best to assume that it's operating under similar rules to Sonic X, and there was an off-screen merging and splitting of the worlds between games. During Sonic X's Sonic Adventure adaptation areas of Sonic's world, including Angel Island and the Mystic Ruins, had been teleported over to Earth. Mystic Ruins quickly became a popular tourist destination. Rouge also began working for the President.

    Yuji Naka was completely unaware of the American Sonic origin story when it was brought up at a Summer of Sonic.

    One of the NPCs says Amy lives in an apartment in downtown Station Square. I can't find a text dump, so I don't recall the exact phrasing.

    In Sonic X, 6 months have passed between episode 26 and 27 (the start of the Sonic Adventure arc). Episode 27 establishes that Amy has moved into an apartment in Station Square

    This doesn't follow logically. She's reminiscing about her adventure(s) with Sonic. Whether this was before or after she started living in Station Square isn't mentioned either way, and isn't relevant.

    In Sonic X episode 27, she's reminiscing about her adventures with Sonic from before she moved to Station Square. Sonic went on a journey some time during that six months.
    Takashi Iizuka was the Director of Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2.
     
  15. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    This.

    I'm not going to pay to have crap served to me.

    So use Sonic X to patchwork it. Man, can't wait for Chris Thorndyke to take over the series.

    But were the localisers? Also, interesting he didn't know since, if I recall correctly, he was working on Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (MD) over in the US. Like, not mocking, that's a genuine curiosity: did he not once look at anything Sonic related in the USA?

    I see, so she's definitely living in Station Square, on the Human World. Noted, thank you.

    Hence my comment "likely", not "definitely". I'm guessing based on evidence from the game, and we don't exactly have a full date on her moving in beyond "Not recently" since she's bored of Station Square after so long. I only went with "since those adventures" since that's what she goes straight to in her train of thought.

    I'm aware. Hence changed to producers. Kind of baffling how he didn't slip any references in about their being two worlds. That only happens when he became Producer and Head of Sonic Team, so I'm guessing the Directors don't get much say on how the plot or world is going.
     
  16. Taylor

    Taylor

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    The takeaway I'm getting from these threads are "read the comics if you want decent continuity" tbh

    I get the frustration but Sonic Colors, the game that marked the trend of p. much ignoring continuity came out a decade ago. There's no putting the genie back into the bottle when it comes to Sonic's tangled up and bizarre continuity since it would take a heavily coordinated effort to fix things. And ultimately Sonic doesn't really need a solid continuity. Someone brought up Zelda, and what is the best selling Zelda game? Breath of the Wild, a game that basically ignored the franchise's continuity :V
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
  17. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    No, but there is a way to sort it out and reset it just enough to alter things back to a consistent continuity. The problem is I don't think it'll happen, so... :specialed:
     
  18. The KKM

    The KKM

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    Sega's issue here is mostly that these concepts aren't that complex, they just do a shit job of explaining it. We've had explanations for all this for a decade now, but they always have to come via hearsay and second-hand tellings, Iizuka in live events or Ian Flynn in his podcast.

    Classic Sonic's world is best seen as a separate timeline. That necessarily doesn't mean "separate world"- presumably, until we have something to contradict it, there's a Sonic World AND Human World in the Classic Sonic dimension- after all, where else would Eggman be from? So just write that off as that.

    Sonic Adventure's also easily explained once you remember what we've been told often- there are portals connecting the worlds, and these portals are giant rings that we specifically are not allowed to be shown in the games. I believe the intent is to not distract you from each games' individual story with the wider setting details, which like I said, "shit job of explaining it". So, how did Angel Island end up in human world in Adventure? Went through an unseen giant ring. How did the echidnas make ruins in the Human World? They went through an unseen giant ring. How do Amy, Tails, and Big live in the Human World? Went through a Giant Ring.

    Now, it's clear Sonic Team either didn't make sure that even internally everyone was in the same page, or had no issues with GUN going through the Giant Ring, because yes, every indication in Rush is that it's set in Sonic's World EXCEPT for the GUN Fleet. That said, if you can accept Angel Island going through the Giant Ring, a GUN Fleet isn't that much a stretch either.

    Ian says this has been the status quo since the late 90s at least, and I can kinda believe him. It would explain Sonic X- it's not Sega adapting Sonic X to the games, it's Sonic X was adapting game lore we never knew. Maybe they'd not fully decided how it worked yet, hence the Chaos Controls instead of Giant Rings.

    Side note too, there's another obvious reason why they didn't just "do the Two Worlds in Adventure with Sonic being from Mobius" etc. It's a reason we've been told from 4chan posts proven right, from Gene in this forum, and I think Ian- and also from the Sonic Spinball JP Manual. Sonic couldn't be from Mobius, Sonic's World can't be named Mobius, because Mobius already exists in the lore and is a separate planet. If Sonic's from "Earth", Mobius is "Mars".

    EDIT: That said, even if a lot of this is apparently how things always were and we just didn't know, we DO know there's been actual recent retcons- namely, how Forces establishes Sonic's World doesn't use roman lettering so it can look more alien... despite all the times where it has, in the past. That one seems happily forgotten.
     
  19. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    So everyone conveniently jumps through these Giant Rings when we have a game set in an alternate world? Team Sonic, Team Dark, Team Rose and Team Chaotix all happened to have migrated to Earth from Sonic's World after Sonic Heroes in time for the Black Arms invasion of Earth in Shadow the Hedgehog?

    I'm not buying it. Why would the Chaotix hop over to Earth after having no involvement with the ongoing events? What, did someone in Sonic's World hire them to jump to Earth and get info on an Earth Scientist from 50 years ago? Only the Sonic Adventure 2 cast could be involved with that, the main lot wouldn't dig it up, and those that would care (Shadow, Rouge and Robotnik) are more likely just to get the information themselves.

    Again, things fall apart if you apply anything other than "it's one world" to the series before Sonic Colours.
     
  20. big smile

    big smile

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    Naka spoke very little English back then. Unless they translated it for him, he probably wouldn't be able to read it.

    It's been discussed in the other thread but Sonic Team retcons things all the time.

    In the Adventure era, a lot of explanations came via the strategy guides. Things like the Chaos Emeralds powering up, or Maria and her NIDS, were all explained in the Japanese strategy guides. Sadly Sonic Team stopped producing them around Riders(ish). I bet if they had continued, we'd probably have better explanations for some of the new items.

    It's dumb, but it actually does work. Think about it: In SA1, everything happened around Station Square and Mystic Ruins. Then for Sonic Adventure 2, they moved to other locations. If transporting between giant rings is super easy (which it seems to be), then the shift in locations from !earth and "Sonic's World" isn't that different than the shift that happened between SA1 & SA2. It's dumb and they should have explained it better (especially as Sonic X makes the shift seem like a rarity), but it does work.