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The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    I'd think Chemical Plant and Oil Ocean closed down after Eggy left Westside Island, making their appearances in Mania illusions. Ditto for other bases of his like Metallic Madness or Flying Battery (which IIRC fell down in S3K... twice).
     
  2. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    But with what purpose would they fly towards West Side Island?

    Metallic Madness isn't an issue because time on Little Planet is weird. Assume anything could happen there.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2022
  3. The idea was that if Mirage Saloon were in fact real and perhaps serving as a respite from all the illusions, then it would make no sense to be located anywhere other than Angel Island. Now if it were located on Angel Island, and I believe it is, then it would make zero sense to directly lead to the Oil Ocean on WSI and therefore must have transitioned to another OoZ.
     
  4. BlackHole

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    To get to the Little Planet faster than Angel Island, with Westside Island just in the path. Until they're shot down and have to detour, allowing Angel Island ahead of them.

    Assuming the Little Planet is actually there and not another illusion...
     
  5. Blue Spikeball

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    Mirage Saloon in Angel Island? With western saloons, trains, and wanted posters? I seriously doubt it.

    Besides we already know what the desert area in Angel Island is like, and it looks like Egypt, rather than the Wild West.
     
  6. shilz

    shilz

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    I always assumed Mirage Saloon was on Sonic CD/4 Island
     
  7. BlackHole

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    That would mean Oil Ocean Zone would be as well, since it's a hedgehog shot away.
     
  8. kyasarintsu

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    The Flying Battery (is that its actual name?) doesn't need to be flying exclusively over Angel Island when it shows up. To the audience it "belongs" on Angel Island but it doesn't really have to be there. It could have just happened to be wherever Studiopolis is, which doesn't have to be on Angel Island either.
    I always imagined Mania as taking place in some weird hodgepodge world where everything blends together. I think it would have been really cool to see on a world map or something.
     
  9. Blue Spikeball

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    Well, the Mania title screen shows an island shaped like Sonic's head, suggesting that the game is set in some nonnatural island created by the Phantom Ruby.
     
  10. BlackHole

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    To save some argument, I've gone through to check what I can for Sonic Mania's levels:

    Green Hill Zone
    Location: South Island
    Next Level Transition: Phantom Ruby

    Chemical Plant Zone
    Location: Westside Island
    Next Level Transition: Pipeline

    Studiopolis Zone
    Location: (Presumably) Westside Island
    Next Level Transition: Grabs onto...

    Flying Battery Zone
    Location: The Sky
    Next Level Transition: Paragliders

    Press Garden Zone
    Location: Unknown, possibly Westside Island depending on how far the Flying Battery travelled
    Next Level Transition: Phantom Ruby

    Stardust Speedway Zone
    Location: Little Planet
    Next Level Transition: Phantom Ruby

    Hydrocity Zone
    Location: Angel Island
    Next Level Transition: Water bursts tunnel open, next seen on Tornado in skies above...

    Mirage Saloon Zone
    Location: Westside Island
    Next Level Transition: Cannon fired to...

    Oil Ocean Zone
    Location: Westside Island
    Next Level Transition: Flying Submarine

    Lava Reef Zone
    Location: Angel Island
    Next Level Transition: Looking towards Little Planet from platform.

    Metallic Madness Zone
    Location: Little Planet
    Next Level Transition: Looking out towards...

    Titanic Monarch Zone
    Location: Little Planet
    Next Level Transition: Phantom Ruby

    Egg Reverie Zone
    Location: ???

    Game really loved Westside Island, huh?
     
  11. Plorpus

    Plorpus

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    I don’t think any of the Mania levels are illusions, I think that the Phantom Ruby in that game is mostly making physical changes by manipulating space-time, with the possible exception of the giant Metal Sonic since it was made later and has that red crystaline effect. It’s what the developers initially intended (primarily because they didn’t have much info on the Phantom Ruby) and it’s the simplest explanation. In Forces, Eggman says that the Ruby has space-time manipulating properties that he didn’t intend back when Classic first appears, right? It also can create null-space. I think that because the gem’s powers are so loosely defined it’s not that weird to just take things as face value.

    As for Oil Ocean not being on Westside Island, it could be like Chemical Plant in Forces where it’s just another plant that Eggman made.
     
  12. Blue Spikeball

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    Egg Reverie = Null Space?
     
  13. Starduster

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    I don’t really like the idea of Classic Sonic being a phantom personally. I know his inclusion in Forces was divisive from the beginning and I certainly wasn’t happy to see him there, but in a way it makes a cheap inclusion feel even cheaper because of the idea that it’s not real in the first place. That’s just my particular feeling though.

    More broadly, I think it’s all but contradicted by the text surrounding it, that being Encore Mode and Mania Adventures. It’s certainly a much stronger connection in the latter, but in both, Sonic shows up on Angel Island via a Phantom Ruby portal that’s identical to the one he went into at the end of Mania’s story (Adventures even has him still waving to Tails). I can only say “all but contradicted” due to the fact that both texts provide no dialogue to explicitly confirm or deny the idea, but I think the intention is certainly plain to see in Mania Adventures.

    Of course, we also have the schrodinger’s canon of Encore Mode and Mania Adventures. To a point, they do hit the same broad strokes beats and both are sufficiently self contained to the point that it doesn’t really matter which you prefer as your canon, but it certainly presents just a twinge of frustration in the form of a puzzle that just can’t be solved neatly.

    With regards to Knuckled and the Master Emerald, I don’t think what’s presented is a huge deal. The crew are at the mercy of Eggman and the Phantom Ruby to begin with so he’s already along for the ride, but beyond that, when he knows Eggman is up to something, surely it’d be best to keep him in sight? In that regard, I think Knuckles going through the same path as Sonic and Tails makes sense insofar as he knows he can work with them to take down Eggman, and taking the proactive approach in trying to stop Eggman ASAP would be conducive to keeping the Master Emerald safe.
     
  14. shilz

    shilz

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    That transition wasn't there originally, right? I think that's more why I remember it like that... because I don't play Mania and I've played very little past certain updates that added all that.
     
  15. BlackHole

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    Honestly, my biggest gripe is the Knuckles cutscene: they made it in such a way it confirms Sonic's cutscene just happened (they added a distinct 'glitching' animation that plays nowhere else for the Phantom Ruby, meaning it was deliberate on their part), rather than just having Knuckles get snagged in that initial warping from said cutscene. Since we know Sonic's just took place, the EggRobos should be in Green Hill Zone as Hard-Boiled Heavies, yet there they are in Angel Island Zone as EggRobos...

    And this was before the patches...

    Which would mean that's 2 for 2 on people escaping the 'inescapable' Null Space...

    At the same time, Sonic emerges from the portal in Encore Mode with the Phantom Ruby right above him, as he entered at the end of Story Mode. The Phantom Ruby that was shattered in Sonic Forces.

    The transition makes more sense if from Story Mode to Encore More without Sonic Forces there between. I don't count Sonic Mania Adventures as canon, just like the comics. Game comes first.

    No, actually, that was one of the ones in there from the start.
     
  16. Starduster

    Starduster

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    A fair point. I went back and watched some of the relevant cutscenes though, and there are a couple of issues. Not just with either of our interpretations, mind, but Forces as a whole and the mechanics of Classic Sonic's existence in the plot. Classic Sonic doesn't appear with any kind of Phantom Ruby when he first shows up. You'd think this'd be a point in favour of the idea that he is a phantom, but then who summoned him? Tails doesn't have a prototype, nobody else is in the immediate vicinity and there's nothing to suggest that anyone did intentionally summon him. Eggman is surprised to see him and Infinite wouldn't even have experience of this iteration of Sonic to summon him in the first place (and even if he did, why would he?). The best thing we get is Tails speculating that Eggman's power must be affect other dimensions (in effect, time periods, now it's all confirmed to be on one timeline), which is true, in a manner of speaking.

    Beyond that, I feel like Classic Sonic retaining "his" ruby is the only way he can continue to exist in the plot. If his Phantom Ruby was destroyed at some point between meeting Tails and encountering Eggman and Infinite (which is extremely unlikely, given that, again, Eggman wasn't aware of his presence until their fight anyway, much less that he had a Phantom Ruby), then it would follow that either Sonic is sent back to the past immediately, or he's stuck in the present. Given the convenience of Classic Sonic staying in the present until the war's over, I'd argue the only thing that really works is that his Phantom Ruby must continue to exist in some form, whether that's in his personal hammerspace or floating around at a distance and keeping hidden from everyone else.

    I'm beginning to think there wasn't much communication between the plots of Mania and Forces...
     
  17. BlackHole

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    I mentioned that:
    Basically, the real superpower of friendship!

    Since I maintain Phantom Sonic is a thing: he exists so long as the Phantom Ruby Copy does, which is why he begins disappearing after it is shattered, though his willpower is why it took a little bit compared to the other Phantoms.

    As for Sonic Mania's Phantom Ruby kicking about for Classic Sonic, assuming no Phantom Sonic: wouldn't he show it so they could use it to counter the Modern Phantom Ruby? If it were involved in his return to the Classic Time, would it not warp him back out via the same portal, instead of dissolving like he did?

    There was not. I have to use so much of my BS ability on these to try and make them fit... and SEGA were trying to actually make them work together. This is why I don't trust them with continuity.
     
  18. Starduster

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    I don't really think that's fair. Mania/Forces is certainly a mess, but one that predates the current movement. The main issues seem to be that the Mania team weren't given enough information about the Phantom Ruby and what happens in Forces to make Mania 100% congruent with that vision, while the Forces team either didn't have enough time or simply opted not to adjust the story in light of Mania's existence. Forces was in development since around the time Lost World released so I think Classic Sonic's inclusion perhaps was originally just Phantom Ruby experimentation going wrong and the plot was very much written around the desire to bring Classic Sonic in.

    Granted, with regards to the quality of Forces as a product and any attempts to rationalise the story it presents, we can only use what's given to us, so such speculation is useless in that regard, but thinking about continuity going forward, I do think it's important to keep in mind that this predates Aaron Webber being promoted into SEGA of Japan and the elevation of the voices of long time Sonic fans (particularly in the west) to a position where they can have more potent input on things going forward.

    If there's one thing I think this thread has made clear in recent months, it's that this franchise is a mess when it comes to continuity. Some things just aren't reconcilable. I see what's happening right now as a kind of "cutting the losses" phase. Almost everything is canon right now in a manner that necessitates some brute force. Chaotix, Mania and Forces, etc.. It seems to me that filling in the gaps in that regard is up to each fan individually deciding if that's something they want to do and how they want to rationalise things (until SEGA sees fit to provide official explanations in some form or another), but the important thing is that most everything is on the table right now. Hopefully, in the fullness of time, that means future media can draw on elements that otherwise would've been unavailable before now (the melding of what was once two worlds allowing an easier incorporation of any given setting into a plot, classic characters please god above, so on so forth). That's what all this stuff means to me. Less about getting into the weeds of how exactly the pieces fit together, but instead re-establishing the history of the setting for the sake of providing tools for building future stories.

    God, my head hurts. I think I need to stop thinking about Forces for a few days.
     
  19. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    The problem is this is a recurring trend. Such as Sonic the Portable becoming Sonic the Hedgehog 4, continuity be damned. I don't trust them since they've shown a repeated disregard, and now people are expecting me to believe they've changed and are totally going to look into it.

    Fun fact: Mephiles was also going to appear as a Phantom. Wrap your head around that fun little nugget of continuity chaos.

    It really shouldn't have gotten to this point in the first place, but I digress.
     
  20. Thing is, their attitude toward lore has changed, as established by their continued drive to establish a canon, however flawed or not, and to entertain in either/or an official or unofficial capacity the burning lore concerns of the community. Seems as if there's an internal push to consolidate canon too, and I suspect that it ain't solely for the sake of us devoted yet wildly diverse fans.