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The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. Pengi

    Pengi

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    Sonic Generations is another case of the needs of the game trumping series continuity. Sky Sanctuary is explicitly set during the events of Sonic & Knuckles, with the Death Egg launch, but none of the Egg Robos have animals inside them.
     
  2. Plorpus

    Plorpus

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    I think the way it works is basically:
    in-game story > extra official material (strategy guides and manuals) > old manuals (no need to complain about this one again. We get it. You know who you are) > gameplay elements like rings and items. I’d place stuff like the Generations enemies not dropping animals or chaos drives in that last category, as well as details like the number of emeralds in Spinball, Battle, and Fighters, or Stardust Speedway being the bad future version in Sonic 4.
     
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  3. LockOnTommy11

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    Which page out of the 223 mentions this?
    Seriously though, I must have missed this entirely, my bad.

    I also watched Tails Tube, there’s only two (I thought there were more) and they haven’t mentioned a lot so far…
     
  4. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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  5. LockOnTommy11

    LockOnTommy11

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    Thank you! I’ll sit and have a good read through.
     
  6. BlackHole

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    New Bumblekast. Continuity Question at 16:06.
     
  7. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Yeah, it's about what one would expect from this scenario, I think. And of course Ian echoes the sentiments that have been said in this thread that ultimately the Sonic series wasn't made with the intention of some grand design where everything is canon. Heroes trampled over Chaotix, Sonic 4 trampled over Chaotix, Mania trampled over Chaotix...poor Chaotix. Anyway, I don't think we're going to get an official explanation on "how does *that* work" anytime soon because, as frustrating as I can imagine this being for some, Mania and Forces are now half a decade old and while this does present the question, I don't this that question has immediacy for SEGA. If they bring back the Phantom Ruby or Infinite, that'd be the best time to address it, but who knows if, when or how that will happen. For my part, I'm content to just know that we're living in one timeline (the best timeline!) and that I can continue to rationalise the time travel stuff with Steven Moffat's fast and loose rules on time travel.
     
  8. BlackHole

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    *grumbles as his own explanation just sits there unused*

    (I am joking)
     
  9. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    @Starduster That was the explanation you suggested, right?
    I might be dumb but I don't think it works for Forces.

    In Generations, Modern Sonic would not remember these events when he was Classic Sonic because he will only fully remember them when he (Modern Sonic) experiences them. I think I get it. But these events happened with the two Sonics together.

    In Forces, Classic Sonic had experienced Mania, with no Modern Sonic. So, Modern Sonic should remember Mania. It's his past. It would make sense if Classic Sonic forgets the events of Forces, because of the timestreams out of sync, but Mania happened for both Sonics already.
     
  10. BlackHole

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    Since it's the subject of conversation, I'll bring forward how I'd resolve the Phantom Ruby issue:

    1) The Phantom Ruby was lost at the end of Sonic Mania Plus' Encore Mode. Note that I say lost, not destroyed, much like how the Warp Topaz was lost, but confirmed not destroyed.

    2) Robotnik, during the course of Sonic Mania, scanned the Phantom Ruby. This allows him to begin efforts to copy the Phantom Ruby, hence all the Prototypes.

    3) Robotnik doesn't actually show unfamiliarity with the Phantom Ruby in Sonic Forces: the most he expresses is that it's his newfound power. This is because he has created a copy of the Phantom Ruby, which is now under his control, rather than the rogue original that went haywire.

    4) Sonic and Tails are unfamiliar with Infinite's power in Sonic Forces, but not because they've not encountered the Phantom Ruby, instead because of several reasons such as:
    • The Phantom Ruby is being used in a very different way to how it was in Sonic Mania, empowering a specific person without affecting appearance and seemingly controlling four others compared to overwriting everything around it and empowering Metal Sonic into a different form that one time. The original is also capable of this, but it wasn't used as such since it was the first time anyone was interacting with it.
    • The Phantom Ruby Copy is a different shape and has black lines, so they wouldn't recognise it just as Sonic wouldn't think of a Sol Emerald as a Chaos Emerald.
    • As a copy, the Phantom Ruby Copy is giving off a slightly different 'feeling': the copy is not a perfect copy, as seen by the limit of only the activating entity can use it, versus the original interacting with every mind around it freely.
    5) Classic Sonic is actually a Phantom, like Metal Sonic, Shadow, Zavok, etc. As the original Phantom Ruby was interacting with Sonic (and friends) during Sonic Mania when it was being scanned, copies of their minds were included in the scans without Robotnik realising. Phantom Sonic appears due to both Tails calling specifically for him and Sonic's natural willpower, especially when it comes to his friends. Plus a healthy dose of the Phantom Ruby's energy in the environment due to Infinite and Robotnik's constant use and abuse of it. As such, Sonic's story is Sonic Mania Plus > Encore Mode > rest of the series > Sonic Forces. Not Sonic Mania Plus > Sonic Forces > Encore Mode.

    6) As you can probably guess, the four prequel comics would be non-canon: at most I'd have them as stories made up over the course of the six months of war.

    This is just how I'd handle the Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces continuity issues, and while it's technically headcanon since this is how I treat the story personally, just noting it here since that's the topic and:

    Feel free to point out any holes so I can patch them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2022
  11. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    While I think your solution is too convoluted (and that's not your fault, but Forces'), this is something I think it's worth a discussion. There's no virtual reality shenanigans in Mania, and there's no transformation/empowerment in Forces as there was with the Hard Boiled Heavies.

    If we assume the prequel comics are non canon (which they aren't), we could headcanon that the real properties of the Phantom Ruby are those shown in Mania (as Christian Whitehead said: "power enriched by the mind"), while the virtual reality thing is a property only of the Phantom Ruby prototypes. And that's because the real Phantom Ruby in Forces was used only as power core in the final boss.

    But since the prequel comics are canon, part of the problem can be solved if some levels in Mania were virtual realities (we would have to think carefully on which ones). But there's no actual empowerment in Forces: both Eggman and Infinite touched the real Phantom Ruby and they did not transform into anything as the HBH did. How could this be solved?
     
  12. BlackHole

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    Oh, I am under no illusion, I am fully aware I have to do some heavy BSing for Sonic Forces...

    Honestly, those comics should be chucked. They contradict the continuity of Sonic Forces, let alone Sonic Mania...
     
  13. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    They did? I don't remember.
     
  14. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    They lose Omega in Arsenal Pyramid in the comic, not the City like in Episode Shadow, for one.
     
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  15. Plorpus

    Plorpus

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    Only insofar as they depict the beginning of the episode Shadow story a bit differently and accidentally have the original phantom Ruby drawn with the prototype design. I think both it and episode Shadow were late additions to the storyline though, the original script makes it seem like the Phantom Ruby (Valtron) was just an Eggman creation as was Infinite.

    Sonic Forces in general just fucked with continuity like 06 and they belong in the trash together. …But here we are.
     
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  16. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    So here's my take on which Mania levels are illusions, assuming they were on Angel Island for the most part of the game.


    Angel Island - real
    Green Hill - illusion (Phantom Ruby was used)
    Chemical Plant - illusion (Phantom Ruby was used)
    Studiopolis - real (although a pipe in Chemical Plant leads to Studiopolis, which could be believed to be a continuation of the illusion, they are on Angel Island because they manage to reach Flying Battery)
    Flying Battery - real
    Press Garden - real
    Stardust Speedway - illusion (Phantom Ruby was used)
    Hydrocity - illusion (Phantom Ruby was used)
    Mirage Saloon - illusion (because Oil Ocean should be an illusion)
    Oil Ocean - illusion (it's weird that they went back to West Side Island and then still managed to get to Lava Reef by submarine)
    Lava Reef - real (Knuckles manages to reach Hidden Palace through it)
    Metallic Madness - real (here they finally leave Angel Island and arrive in Little Planet)
    Titanic Monarch - real
     
  17. I like this lens here, but I don't understand or agree with Mirage Salon and Oil Ocean being hallucinations/illusions.

    To elaborate: Mirage Saloon could easily be referencing the illusions of Bean, Bark, and Fang. Oil Ocean of West Side Island could merely be one of many.
     
  18. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    If they were on Angel Island the whole time, they couldn't go to Oil Ocean which is in West Side Island (well unless the oil refinery has expanded to the point where it is accessible through Angel Island).

    From Mirage Saloon to Oil Ocean the transition was not via Phantom Ruby. If they got to Oil Ocean by natural means, and Oil Ocean is an illusion, it would make sense if Mirage Saloon is part of the illusion.
     
  19. I agree that Mirage Saloon, located on Angel Island, makes no sense transitioning to OoZ from West Side Island. Much like all the casinos/carnivals, stuff like Oil Ocean and Chemical Plant could easily have a multitude of coexisting locations, so I wouldn't automatically assume any new rendition to not be unique.
     
  20. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Who says Mirage Saloon is on Angel Island? They're travelling on plane at that point, so they're mostly likely over Westside Island.

    I honestly think the entire game is an illusion due to this level.

    [​IMG]

    Would Knuckles let Robotnik get this close to the Hidden Palace/Master Emerald to build that stuff?
    ...I'd bring up a certain collection for a snarky comment, but softban on subject, moving on.

    Anyway, I honestly think the Phantom Ruby is showing a world completely controlled by Robotnik (beyond Green Hill Zone, which is Sonic's world) to those in it's snare throughout the whole game.