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The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. Starduster

    Starduster

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    You...entirely missed the point of what I was saying. When Sonic Heroes brought the Chaotix back, it did so under the auspices that they were "new" characters. We have that straight from the horse's mouth. Sonic Heroes was designed at a time when Chaotix was considered non-canon and makes that about as explicit as can be expected within the text of the universe. You like to try and justify these things (i.e. by saying that they were trying to antagonise Eggman) and that's fine for us fans to do, but it's not a reading that's supported by the text in the slightest and simply wouldn't be anything but forced and gratuitous as an official explanation. It's best for SEGA to just cut their losses and say "yeah that was said back then, but this is now, Chaotix is canon so something's gotta give and in this case it's that throwaway line in Heroes".

    Looking forward to it.
     
  2. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    The problem is that it's not a throwaway line, it's the entire first boss fight of Team Chaotix. Espio is the only one with any recognition of Robotnik.

    I mean, if a fan can figure out an explanation that enables both to exist and isn't out of character for the issue, then surely professional writers can do a much better job, no? Especially one who is a fan, unlike the previous writers, and can make use of a comic to relay the information. Have Team Chaotix square off against Metal Sonic, "this guy ain't so smart. Remember when he didn't even react like Eggman would when I 'forgot' him at Seaside Hill?" There, the plothole fix is issued.

    Let's be honest, it makes little sense even without factoring Chaotix in: who misses the Moon being blown up, especially a detective agency?
     
  3. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Not recognising Eggman as the guy who blew up the moon is all the more reason to just bin the line.
     
  4. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Again, not just one line, it's their entire initial interaction with him in Sonic Heroes: it goes beyond the opening, meaning that entire bossfight has to be silenced.


    7:40

    Not to mention, if we're just going to start dropping things due to continuity issues, then the entirety of Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) has to be scrapped because that is just one massive plothole. Which then affects Sonic Generations, because these things have knock-on effects.
     
  5. Pengi

    Pengi

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    It was never explained how all four teams fought all the same bosses anyway. It was already a stretch that all four teams were going through all the levels at the exact same time and not bumping into each other.
     
  6. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    I thought it was explained by the "Metal Sonic-as-Eggman was manipulating and goading everyone into fighting him as part of his plan" reveal. He would have had mechs and robots prepared for each team.

    The various teams going all through the same areas in the same order was indeed a stretch, but to be fair, they did bump into (and fight) each other at multiple points in the story.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2022
  7. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    But the canon has it they were, and the teams do bump into each other, so they were. I think they might have been on different timings: Team Sonic are the only ones who see the Egg Fleet taking off, while Team Dark are simply looking for Robotnik, Team Rose are tailing Team Sonic, and Team Chaotix are being directed by Robotnik, so Metal Sonic is possibly doing the fight with one team, then jumping over to a replica and redoing the fight with the next team. Considering three of the teams he's doing it as he's copying data, I assume it's possibly down to scientific principle: three different rats in the same maze, see how each navigate it, y'know?

    But that's speculation to the highest order on my part.
     
  8. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    Going back to the Emeralds, while my question about whether there were originally intended to be multiple sets has been more-or-less answered, I'm still curious about what's going on in Sonic 3's manual. Knuckles is guarding the Emeralds, and then they suddenly do what I can only assume is Chaos Control as the DE is crashing into the island. But why? What causes that to happen? AFAIK this is the only instance of the Emeralds acting of their own accord, anywhere in the series.

    Actually, I guess they do have a mind of their own in the Classic games, given Sonic 1's ending. So I dunno.

    My only theory is that the Emeralds sensed that there was now evil present on the island, and actively hid themselves away. But I assume they're like the Triforce in that they cannot judge good or evil. Alternatively, due to Knuckles's position as Guardian, the Emeralds used their power to send Knuckles away to protect him from the crash.
     
  9. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Sonic 06 *did* scrap itself. Besides, I think there’s a difference in making a character motivation for a continuity snarl on the spot as opposed to solving a snarl with very logical suggestions that makes use of the established precedents and elements of the series. Honestly it’s baffling that nobody really reconciled Blaze in 06 in such a manner beforehand given the simplicity and elegance of your solution, but I just don’t think that’s there with what you suggest regarding Heroes.

    Furthermore, there’s a difference in what’s really needed. If you take out the dialogue from the Egg Hawk boss fight (or more realistically/ideally re-record it in a remaster of the game or some such to remove the contradiction), the story of Heroes doesn’t change in any meaningful way, nor do any of the events that come later, because Heroes’ story is already very simple to begin with and nothing in the series as a whole hinges on the idea of the Chaotix not already knowing Eggman outside of their campaign.

    Meanwhile, Blaze presented much more of an issue, given that we were presented with two radically different contexts for the character in games that released within a year of each other. Rush gave us their explicit first meeting but then in 06 she doesn’t think to tell Silver about who Sonic actually is. We initially had the dubious out of 06 technically not happening, but then Generations shot that down by having Blaze remember 06. There is already a lot more that hinges on the chronology of Blaze and the stories of Rush and 06 are more involved than Heroes, so there is more that begins to pile up with such contradictions.

    It’s the same with Eggman Nega and to an even more extreme degree. Across two pairs of games we get radically different mutually exclusive backstories presented for him that has lead to a lot of confusion, which can be logically reconciled using what’s shown to us in those games.
     
  10. Blue Spikeball

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    The manual says that the emerald altar was in ruins afterwards, apparently damaged by the quakes caused by the DE crash-landing on the island. So perhaps the emeralds sensed the incoming danger and teleported away somewhere (possibly to the special stages' dimension, explaining why Sonic can find them in special stages) in order to protect themselves?

    As for the emeralds acting of their own accord, it was implied in Rush Adventure that they're sentient and teleported Sonic and Tails to Blaze's dimension because they sensed their help was needed there. Something similar happened in the wallpaper cover stories in Sonic Channel. And IIRC, it was stated that the Sol Emeralds do the same, occasionally taking Blaze where she's needed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2022
  11. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    I think this boils down to my and your difference of opinion regarding culling. I've established I like to try and keep everything, even the contradictions. I'm like Ned Flanders regarding the Bible:


    "I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!"

    You are happy to cull a line to remove a snarl, which is fine, but it's just something I do not like to do. I will always try and keep everything, and work it in a way to resolve the snarl. You'd cut a knot, I'd work it out, essentially.

    Which has led to things like my explanation for Blaze in Sonic the Hedgehog (2006), but also led to my hatred for Sonic Origins (well, also the massive amount of glitches, poor performance, etc, but you get the jist).

    That kind of sounds like my old headcanon that Knuckles was "Tikal'd" at one point: stored in the Master Emerald until later.
     
  12. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    My way of doing this is: if it's only in the manual, cut it off; if it's in the game, keep it.

    [my way is the right way]
     
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  13. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    You do realise that's pretty much everything in the classic games stories, except ironically the whole Sonic ignoring Tails thing due to Sonic Adventure, since they lack cutscenes?
     
  14. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    What's important in the classic games is already in the games.

    Sonic 1: Eggman captures animals to power their robots, Sonic stops him and collects Chaos Emeralds along the way, which Eggman was looking for (you see him with them in the bad ending).

    Sonic CD: There's a natural satellite above a lake in which Eggman is doing some bad stuff, Sonic goes there and finds there's some time travel thing going on. There's this girl who falls in love with him, and there's this Eggman's robot who kidnaps her. Sonic saves her, beats the robot, beats Eggman and collects Time Stones along the way, which happen to deal with time travel as well.

    Sonic 2: Eggman captures animals for his robots again. Now there's a fox with two tails - called Miles 'Tails' Prower - with Sonic for some reason. Eggman builts a giant weapon that looks like the Death Star - called Death Egg -, so he's an even more serious threat than we thought before. Sonic defeats him and collects those Chaos Emeralds from Sonic 1 (now there are 7 for some reason) and we find that they grant a huge power because he becomes Super Sonic with them.

    Sonic 3K: Super Sonic (which implies it's a direct sequel to Sonic 2) arrives in a new island with Tails and some red echidna called Knuckles punches him in the face, stealing the Chaos Emeralds. He tries to get in the way of Sonic all the time, and we discover he protects a huge green Emerald which has a relation to those Chaos Emeralds. Later on we also discover he was actually tricked by Eggman, who stole the Master Emerald and made the Death Egg rise again - it had fallen onto the island after the events of Sonic 2. The Master Emerald was capable of making the Chaos Emeralds become Super Emeralds, which made Sonic become Hyper Sonic. Hyper Sonic defeats Eggman and returns the Master Emerald to Knuckles.

    All of these pieces of information are in the games, no need for manuals. And these are the essential. The manuals were complementary.

    And I don't mean to cut off everything, only what is problematic.
    Knuckles was guarding the Chaos Emeralds in Sonic 3 before Sonic arrives? Doesn't make sense, cut it off. Are you bothered that this nonsense was cut off?
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2022
  15. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Actually, checking it out, Robotnik wasn't using them to power the mechs: he was just doing it to mess with Sonic.

    Did anything actually confirm he was using them to power the robots?

    Otherwise, I'm going to refrain from answering further, since the mods want us not to discuss Sonic Origins for a bit.
     
  16. Screenshot 2022-09-12 at 23-56-37 Badnik - Sonic Retro.png
     
  17. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Isn't that from the wiki? I meant something from the series itself, like a line in one of the manuals, or in-game when voice acting became a thing.
     
  18. Also from the wiki:
    Windii's translation of the JP manual for Sonic 1 also claims this:
     
  19. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Yeah, I've got that noted, but he's saying he turned them into robots, not that the animals are powering the robots. I'll have a look through the manuals, see if I can find anything supporting that they're actually being used for power, but...
     
  20. From S3 JP manual, courtesy of Windii.

    Just as is implied in the games, the original forsaken manuals cemented the intention of Eggman's robots being powered by critters or some other living source.