don't click here

The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. Yeah. Are there any links to the full "leak" around still? I find people commenting on parts of it for years, and the Sonic X bit retconning Heroes is a part I don't think I've seen explicitly before. I just remember mostly the two worlds part really.
     
  2. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    Well not really.

    You could argue that Sonic Adventure's flashback is actually Tails dreaming, so a dream could be not 100% accurate. And they are in a forest that looks a lot like that jungle area in Mystic Ruins, which makes no sense if it really were.

    And/Or you could argue that that scene is after Origins. Tails got bullied by those two foxes; Sonic appears; Tails tries to catch him up; they enter that forest; Tails loses sight of Sonic and got saddened by it; then Sonic appears out of nowhere again; Tails realizes it's Sonic and tries to catch him up again.
     
  3. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    If anyone takes the dream sequence Tails has about Sonic in SA1 literally then that's silly. "When I first met Sonic, we ran around this exact spot of the Mystic Ruins in circles. He was running and I opened my mouth real wide." I mean, it's obviously a stand-in for explaining that story without words and extensive resource creation to anyone who doesn't know the backstory yet.

    It's kinda like if we decided the classics don't work with SA1 because there never was a point where Metal Sonic chased Sonic and Amy through beta Windy Valley.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  4. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    4,853
    439
    63
    England
    Complaining
    It's more logical deduction: Rouge finds Shadow on Robotnik's spaceship, Sonic and friends know Shadow is back and active, especially since he, at one point, beats the crap out of everyone, and Shadow goes through his whole amnesia plot during the events of that season, bar its resolution in Shadow the Hedgehog. Can't exactly have everyone be surprised at seeing Shadow during Sonic Heroes with all that in mind: Sonic X either has to revcon out Team Dark's story (and a cutscene from Team Sonic), or dump its entire third season.

    Otherwise, I'm not sure if anyone has that leak to hand or knows a good place to locate it.

    Aka, we have to use headcanon to cover a plothole that was introduced.

    We're not supposed to take the appearances literally, lest Little Planet's events be set at BETA Windy Valley and the Egg Carrier. Memory and storage, etc. The actions, however, are the important aspect not to be skipped over. He chased Sonic, per the Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive) manual, and Sonic ignored him. Now, Sonic Origins says Sonic cheers and supported him from the outset. Those don't mesh: Sonic Origins Sonic would have turned and winked at him.
     
  5. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    Member
    1,789
    576
    93
    I think it's obvious that the jungle in the dream sequence wasn't meant to be seen as Mystic Ruins; they just used it so that they wouldn't have to needlessly model another generic jungle for such a short sequence.

    I also think that the dream sequence WAS meant to be taken literally, considering how close the version of Sonic and Tails' first meeting in Sonic X (which was closely supervised by Sonic Team) was. It literally shows Tails walking in a jungle depressed until he sees Sonic running around, which prompts him to cheer up and follow him.
     
  6. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    You don't need the headcanon. Just say it was just a dream and that's it.
    Tails fell off of the plane in the Mystic Ruins and was in the need of finding Sonic. Then he dreamed of chasing Sonic in the Mystic Ruins. And that dream made Tails remember when he first met Sonic ("That was a nostalgic dream" / "That dream brought back memories").
    That exactly what the scene shows. Without headcanon.

    C'mon, you fill loopholes way harder than this. If you can ignore the Mystic Ruins setting, you can ignore a missing wink or whatever.
     
  7. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    Member
    1,789
    576
    93
    I mean, seeing how both the dream sequence and the Japanese Sonic 2 backstory had Tails chasing Sonic before formally meeting him, I'd say that it was meant to be an accurate memory and calling it otherwise is by definition headcanoning.
     
  8. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    4,853
    439
    63
    England
    Complaining
    The difference there is I hate Sonic Origins' story, so I'm not about to waste effort on it. And I spend time working out Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) plotholes, to the point I've got a feasible explanation for Mephiles' whole ongoing plot.

    No, he's right: Tails calls it a nostalgic dream when waking up, so technically it can be stated accurately that Tails dreams of Sonic ignoring his existence when he was nothing but supportive from the getgo.

    11:09
     
  9. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    Of course that scene was meant to be seen as his memory of their first meeting.
    But at the same time, that Amy scene was meant to be a recall of her role in Sonic CD. And that scene simply never happened in Sonic CD. Not because it wasn't in Beta Windy Valley and the Egg Carrier, but because Metal Sonic didn't chase Sonic with Amy in his arms in Sonic CD. Why are we holygrailing the fine tuning of Tails' scene but Amy's scene we just think 'oh that was just a call back, don't take it so serious'?

    I remember when we had to come up with an explanation for Stardust Speedway's bad future in Sonic 4, instead of 'they were just reusing Generations' assets, don't worry about it'.
     
  10. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    Member
    1,789
    576
    93
    I'm not "holygrailing" that scene, I just find it silly that people try to justify the inconsistency in Origins by arguing "Oh, that part in SA1 was never meant to be accurate anyway"

    Like, is it so hard to admit that Origins got Sonic and Tails' first meeting wrong/retconned it (depending on whether it was intentional or not)?

    As for Amy's flashback. Honest question, do we know for sure that it's supposed to depict Sonic CD? When I first played SA1 I actually saw it as some event that had happened at some undescribed point in the past, rather than a direct reference to CD. Amy's wording always gave me the impression that she had gotten involved in Sonic's adventures multiple times, not just in CD.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2022
  11. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    4,853
    439
    63
    England
    Complaining
    Because it's not fine tuning, it's an outright change to the events. The Sonic of Sonic Origins would have waved at Tails instead of blowing past him as if he wasn't there.

    Yes, Amy's memory shows her and Sonic being pursued by Metal Sonic, but it covers the same details: Sonic rescued Amy from Metal Sonic and fled with her in his arms. It's not 100%, but the details are covered: Amy was captured by Metal Sonic, Sonic recused her from it, then fled with her in his arms, as Metal Madness collapsed. Not to mention Amy probably would romanticize it, versus Tails who's instead dropping details that would make Sonic look better.
     
  12. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    That line was not for you specifically, it was for us the fanbase in general. Sorry for my choice of words.

    And I do think that scene was meant to be taken literally (despite the Mystic Ruins). And if we take that scene literally, and Origins' scene literally, they kinda don't mesh well. But that was then and now it's now.
    Sonic Adventure changed a lot of things (Angel Island falling into land instead of the ocean is one), I think we could now see that scene not so accurately - mainly because it was a dream.

    And for Amy's scene, I don't know if we have some actual confirmation that it depicts Sonic CD, but it's what it looks like. Why Metal Sonic of all robots? I also see that scene as a different adventure that Sonic rescued her (it's not how Sonic CD happened, it's not on Little Planet), but at the same time I still think it was supposed to be Sonic CD.

    So Amy's flashback is not 100%, but Tails' dream is. I mean, c'mon.
     
  13. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    4,853
    439
    63
    England
    Complaining
    No, neither would be 100%, but you're ignoring that both hero worship Sonic. Amy adding details makes sense, but why would Tails' memory be no meaningful interaction with Sonic when Sonic Origins shows him as nothing but supportive?
     
  14. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    Because it was just a dream after falling from thousands of meters high. Dreams are fuzzy.
    Amy adding elements makes sense because she was consciously describing the one who she loves, while Tails mixing up elements also makes sense because he was unconciously dreaming. You can live with that.
     
  15. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    4,853
    439
    63
    England
    Complaining
    Or I can keep the natural flow of the manual plot to that backstory. Occam's Razor and all that.
     
  16. Starduster

    Starduster

    Sonic Retro's resident IDW slut Member
    1,381
    888
    93
    Britain
    Art...always art...
    You can't really claim Occam's razor if you're going to soapbox about how Origins is invalid and then do a routine of mental gymnastics in order to legitimise the idea that it must be worthless because it contradicts text that wasn't even presented within the games itself in the 90s when really the most straightforward solution is to just accept the fact that, yes, things have changed and this is what we've got now. Your delusion has grown to the point where you're now contesting what people involved in the comics are telling you directly and it's like we can't get past 10 posts in this thread without you making the same tired, snide remarks about how SEGA has ruined everything and must be incapable of working with the narrative of the series when we are literally seeing them give the most shits about said narrative than they have since 2006, arguably even earlier than that. Grow up.
     
  17. Plorpus

    Plorpus

    Previously Hitlersaurus Christ Member
    818
    155
    43
    Ignoring the usual whining (how many times has this exact subject been argued between the same people?), I just want to point out that despite what was said on the previous page, it was never said in the 4chan bible leak that Sonic X was actually canon. The leaker simply used it as a point of reference for the two worlds thing. In that era of canon the adventure games happened after Sonic and friends ended up in the human world, so it’s comparable, but Sonic X and its original characters were never canon to the games.
     
  18. big smile

    big smile

    Oldbie
    924
    82
    28
    Out of interest, did anyone save a screenshot of the 4chan leak?
     
  19. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    4,853
    439
    63
    England
    Complaining
    Actually, I also think the Sonic Origins' plots are terrible stories outside the continuity, as mentioned a few times now. If you're going to start something, at least get it right.

    Second, as noted, they used the manual as the basis for Tails' flashback in Sonic Adventure, as discussed. Last I checked, he wasn't showing off spin attacks like in the US manual for Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive). Of course, how dare we discuss continuity issues in the continuity thread.

    Third, I'm aware this is what we have now. I'm personally electing to ignore it myself, but I'm aware SEGA won't be. The most I can do is refuse to give them money now. I've also mentioned this isn't just Sonic Origins, but elements such as characters being turned into gross caricatures of themselves (Vegeta-lite Shadow) in recent games, the utter shambles that was the Phantom Ruby subplot, my continued dislike of the Boost Formula engine, etc. but these subjects don't exactlyfit in the continuity thread. I could go on and on about the massive amount of bugs and glitches in Sonic Origins that annoyed me instead, if you'd like? How about that Tails bug in Sonic the Hedgehog 2 from the badly added, terribly handled drop dash?

    The reason Sonic Origins keeps arising is because it is the most recent topic of discussion, and has introduced revcons that I and others very much disagree with, as has been noted, resulting in people moving to discuss it in order to either defend or affirm their thoughts on it, since once more: this is the continuity thread. I'm not about to go on a diatribe about the gameplay of the series here, am I? And if you recall, I would note the terrible continuity of the Phantom Ruby subplot because, get this, it was the most recent topic of discussion before Sonic Origins came out. And if Sonic Frontiers messed something up about the continuity, I'd move onto that. By all means, introduce a new topic for the thread, say "Oh hey, there's this cool thing in this game that seems to be related to this thing!" it's not exactly a private floor for people: if you also want, I can go back to the mass continuity chaos that is Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces? Or perhaps go back to pointing out the issues of continuity that Two Worlds brought?

    I'm sorry: why would I know who works on the comic in this forum, I don't exactly stalk members on here to know that? And why would that change my opinion on something? If Ian Flynn or Iizuka himself started talking to me, I'd tell them point blank the same things.

    I would also point out that the information we are sometimes getting from SEGA, such as aforementioned Master Emerald not nullifying the Chaos Emeralds, and also not being what keeps Angel Island afloat, doesn't exactly inspire a great deal of optimism regarding what has been said, and that's directly from SEGA.

    They're not giving a shit about the continuity: you can proclaim it all you like, but if only saying it would make it so.

    They have stories already, but are now doing a full rewrite where it wasn't needed at all, despite what people keep saying. No one has been able to answer what we've gained from these that justify the rewrites either, despite my repeatedly asking. I've also pointed out several issues with the story even ignoring continuity with other games: the Sonic the Hedgehog 3 cutscene doesn't even match the cutscene added to Sonic the Hedgehog 2 that ties them in together, as well as the whole Robotnik ignoring the Master Emerald for the whole game for no actually discerned reason outside headcanons, so I'm hardly hammering a single issue: I'm hammering multiple. It's just like the Sonic Forces continuity issues all over again.

    Of course, the fact I won't just be happy with what they're doing proves I'm delusional, how dare I have standards and not just stomach whatever crap they put in front of me.

    Ignoring the passive agressive remark, I seem to recall someone saying Chris Thornedyke was canon while discussing it, which may be where some confusion stems:

    We do need this, so we can see what exactly was said. Only thing I can find is this thread on Sonic Stadium.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2022
  20. Starduster

    Starduster

    Sonic Retro's resident IDW slut Member
    1,381
    888
    93
    Britain
    Art...always art...
    I was trying to be charitable, but sure, you're also being petulant about it because you simply don't like the stories.

    Except that Sonic Adventure only supports your hypothesis insofar as it doesn't explicitly contradict it, which is very easy to achieve given that it's a truncated, silent cutscene that provides no context for what we're seeing. How much time passed between the shot of Tails chasing after Sonic and the shot of Tails happily following him? Surely if Sonic was ignoring him, Tails wouldn't be happy, but indignant and determined? By your own logic, surely Sonic Adventure's flashback is gutter trash because it doesn't show Tails being bullied and him developing poor self-esteem as a result?

    Except, funnily enough, I've not seen you talk about these nearly as much and drag them back into discussion unprompted when people are talking about other things.

    And there it is. I'm not bothered in the slightest by the fact that you dislike the Origins retellings. You're not the only one. What bothers me is that you're being obnoxiously superior about it, not only acting as though what you're saying is immutable truth, but implicitly belittling others for not sharing your opinion.