don't click here

The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. Only for viewing

    Only for viewing

    aka Superstarxalien Member
    133
    36
    28
    the split will still exist as characters like mighty and ray won't appear in modern sonic in the foreseeable future, which is the entire reason for the split
     
  2. Starduster

    Starduster

    Sonic Retro's resident IDW slut Member
    1,458
    923
    93
    Britain
    Art...always art...
    Here's the thing, though. From what Ian has said, classic is the past now. At the baseline, that includes everything in Origins, 3D Blast, Spinball and Chaotix. Anything further than that such as Fighters and SEGASonic would be reasonable assumptions, but are as of now only assumptions, with Mania in particular being a huge question mark. At any rate, not only do the Chaotix exist from the past into the present day, retconning Heroes in the process, Mighty also must now exist in the past, so there can't really be any hard and fast explanation which absolutely divides the two branding pillars in a way that prevents Mighty from popping up in the modern setting. I think the explanation we're going to get as to why Mighty, Ray, etc. don't show up anymore is simply going to be "we went our separate ways, those guys are off having their own adventures, I wonder how they're doing?". That's it. I think TailsTube trying to explain a split timeline, especially to the target demographic, would be huge misstep when they have the opportunity right now to keep things very light and non-committal. The "sealed characters" don't need to come back into the games if SEGA doesn't want that, but there's also no real need to definitively shut down that possibility and have a scientific reason for that.
     
  3. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    Pretty sure Ian mentioned SegaSonic as part of the canon in a BumbleKast, placed somewhere before Mania.
     
  4. Zephyr

    Zephyr

    Member
    3,208
    225
    43
    US
    Yup:

    I guess this qualifies both as "stuff I'd love to see TailsTube address" and as things I'd be curious to hear Ian clarify on the Bumblekast (if he can):

    The timeline placement(s) of the classic games appear to be:
    - Sonic 1
    - Sonic CD
    - Sonic 2
    - Sonic 3K
    - Sonic Spinball
    - Sonic 3D Blast
    - Sonic R
    - SegaSonic
    - Sonic 4

    So my main questions would be: if the Game Gear games and Chaotix are now part of this, where do they slot in? Is Fighters canon, and if so, where does that slot in? I think we can assume that Mania-Forces-Encore slots in between SegaSonic and Sonic 4, but from what point was short Sonic snagged by the Time Eater? I think we can assume prior to Sonic 4 (since it would have to be prior to Mania), but was that also after SegaSonic, or was it earlier? Is Mania in a new timeline branch created by Generations, or is that now also Modern Sonic's past?
     
  5. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    How could neither Sonic nor Eggman know about the Phantom Ruby in Forces if Mania was not a different timeline?
     
  6. Starduster

    Starduster

    Sonic Retro's resident IDW slut Member
    1,458
    923
    93
    Britain
    Art...always art...
    Timestreams are out of sync, so when the two Sonics cross paths, modern doesn't remember it because it's still events classic is experiencing.

    I always point to the Day of the Doctor for this because it executes the concept so wonderfully. In the special, we have the 11th Doctor, the 10th Doctor and the War Doctor, with the lattermost being the earliest chronological incarnation of the character. Thus, represents the first time the Doctor experienced these events. The 10th Doctor doesn't really remember any of it while the 11th gets brief flashes of familiarity, vaguely recognising what the adventure is as it's about to start. And then to avoid any major plot holes that should logically exist with three versions of the same character crossing over and changing their personal history, Steven Moffat beautifully delivers this out in the ending:



    In fact, this was already used in reference to Generations in Archie Sonic #290:
    upload_2022-8-29_17-43-28.png
    There is absolutely zero need for a timeline split. Any and all plot holes can be avoided with the explanation that the characters don't fully remember the events until the most recent iteration has experienced them.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
  7. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,124
    553
    93
    England
    Complaining
    Ah, back from my trip, what did I miss?

    Yeah, this is dumb and arbitrary. But it's what I've come to expect of Sonic Team, dumb and arbitrary changes that harm the stories.

    Or, y'know, just interweave the levels.

    Green Hill Zone (16-Bit)
    Green Hill Zone (8-Bit)
    Marble Zone (16-Bit)
    Bridge Zone (8-Bit)
    Spring Yard Zone (16-Bit)
    Jungle Zone (8-Bit)
    Labyrinth Zone (16-Bit)
    Labyrinth Zone (8-Bit)
    Star Light Zone (16-Bit)
    Scrap Brain Zone (8-Bit)
    Scrap Brain Zone (16-Bit)
    Sky Base Zone (8-Bit)
    Final Zone (16-Bit)

    Sky Base Zone ends with Sonic chasing Robotnik to a teleporter. It takes them to the Final Zone, where Robotnik makes his last stand, rather than the 8-bit ending.

    I can't be the only one thinking like this, right?

    Hardware limitations, none of the Game Gear titles have animals in them. Unless the Game Gear games are a prequel to the mainline games, before Robotnik started that entire thing that continues through to Sonic Adventure 2...

    Similar to my opinion of Sonic Triple Trouble and Sonic the Hedgehog 3, they aren't skipping chunks of the level as that would confuse the hell out of people. The games are individual runs, the story is both in action.

    Then Sonic Generations White Time and Space and Sonic Generations Blue Adventure must be easier as separate adventures, right? The plots are different (Sonic finds his birthday with everyone, versus Sonic happening upon it earlier), different levels (Sky Sanctuary vs Mushroom Hill), literally the same issues in question.

    Indeed, Espio does know him clearly in Sonic Heroes. Considering Chaotix was once Espio's gig, and you start out with Knuckles and Espio, you could feasibly say they were the two who handled everything.

    If you want, give me like five minutes and I can BS some reasons up? I joke :eng99:

    Robotnik doesn't display unfamiliarity with it outside of the comics, which I ignore canonically as they're as much a mess as the rest of Sonic Forces canonically, even contradicting said game.

    Sonic and Tails could be confused since they never really got a good look at it during Sonic Mania, the Ruby in question is different, Infinite is using it in a very different manner (using it to bolster his abilities versus full environment rewrite), etc.

    I've mentioned my personal headcanon of it being a copy of the original Phantom Ruby before+ as well, so I won't reiterate.

    Indeed, or the events didn't happen until they did, so neither Sonic remembered the events (until they did. Time travel: if you're not getting a headache, you're not thinking about it right).
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2022
  8. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    Member
    1,850
    640
    93
    Honestly, I don't see the point in twisting the canon to fit games that don't add much to the timeline like Spinball or the 8-bit games. Like Hitlersaurus Christ said, you can headcanon explanations for the inconsistencies and plot holes created by these games, but... why? Why go through all that trouble? All you're doing is adding unnecessary snarl to the already confusing timeline.
     
  9. Pengi

    Pengi

    Member
    1,774
    465
    63
    Generations, Colors and Lost World have more specifics in their stories. Those events can't play out twice.

    The plot of 8-bit Sonic 1 is that Eggman is attacking South Island in search of the Chaos Emeralds. That's something that can happen more than once. Most of the Game Gear Sonic titles involve Eggman attacking South Island. This instance just happens to revisit three Zones from a previous adventure.

    By counting them as separate adventures, both games get to exist as originally presented. Each game is a full adventure, not half of an adventure with scenes missing.
     
  10. Plorpus

    Plorpus

    Hog Blue So What Member
    854
    187
    43
    If I had to venture a guess, it’s probably to make things simpler so fans don’t have to wonder “is this game canon or not?”
     
  11. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,124
    553
    93
    England
    Complaining
    Because I enjoy the act. I enjoy piecing together things, seeing if they make a completely coincidental plotline, like what happened with Knuckles:

    Sonic Triple Trouble - seeks to outright kill Sonic. A gentlemen's accord is reached.
    Sonic the Hedgehog 3 - only ever really redirects Sonic around. Robotnik betrays him completely.
    Sonic Blast - Knuckles' bio says "But in truth, his goal is to punish Dr. Eggman, not the Chaos Emeralds."

    So he goes from wholehearted murder attempts, to being unsure and simply trying to shoo Sonic off the island, to seeking to punish Robotnik above collecting the Chaos Emerald pieces.

    Or Espio, who went from being envious of Knuckles in Chaotix since he resided on Angel Island, to being on Angel Island for Sonic the Fighters.



    I enjoy these little details that accidentally fall into overarching narratives. But now these details are being wiped out without reason, arbitrarily being replaced with Sonic Origins...

    And ignoring that it's literally just the Mega Drive plot. Then again, Sonic Origins overwrote it, so I guess it gets the plot now.
     
  12. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    I think I preferred the previous state of no one at Sega bothering with the canon to this deliberate flood of changes that can be equally as bad. You could ignore the naivety of previous canon "fixes" and the fixes themselves, but now they're rewriting the whole book on purpose.

    What I'd want to see addressed in the next TailsTube? Where the multi-coloured Sonic twins ended and if they run at least half as fast as his celebrity Sega-brother.
     
  13. Plorpus

    Plorpus

    Hog Blue So What Member
    854
    187
    43
    To be fair, we wouldn’t even know about most of these changes if people weren’t constantly asking Ian about it. It’s entirely possible that none of this stuff will ever be mentioned in the actual games or other media.
     
  14. Indeed, so all the more incentive to elect to ignore it.
     
  15. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    42:30 and 1:29:34
    Spinball is canon despite those things we all know.

    47:33
    Sonic 1 is the first fight between Sonic and Eggman

    1:10:11
    Sonic is probably not from Christmas Island anymore.

    1:23:49
    Sonic Runners is not canon.

    1:32:09
    SegaSonic happens after 3K (I don't think he meant right after 3K, just sometime after).

    1:52:46
    Mania is in the past (it looks like he meant it's not another dimension/timeline, but that is my take on the question).




     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • List
  16. Really not a fan of where they placed SegaSonic but with there now being a direct indication of its placement I just might get over it in time. It still comes off as arbitrary aside from confirming that it has to take place prior to Chaotix. How and when were Sonic and co captured? If S1 was Sonic and Eggman's first encounter then why are they not only aware of each other but prepared for combat? SegaSonic could, and imo should, happen before S1 if only to establish the hostility between the two. Placing it there doesn't negate Green Hill being their first battle, as all Sonic and co did was run away.
     
  17. Pengi

    Pengi

    Member
    1,774
    465
    63
    SegaSonic the Hedgehog was never intended to be a prequel to Sonic 1 or explain the origins of anything. It was just a self-contained story. It can happen any time before Sonic Mania.

    Exactly as depicted in the game's intro:


    They're on Eggman Island.
     
  18. Plorpus

    Plorpus

    Hog Blue So What Member
    854
    187
    43
    Sonic Runners not being canon is weird since it was made by Sonic Team and explained stuff like what knuckles does with the ME when he leaves and why there are still Wisps after Colors… and because everything else seems to be canon now.
     
  19. It can happen anytime before Chaotix or Mania... whichever has already or will be confirmed to take place first. It fits anywhere between S1 and Chaotix with no need for adjustment, or even before. Even if no thought was put into where it fit within the chronology, it ended up being relatively inconsequential while happening to also have the unique capability of backing up the now apparently rejected manual for Sonic 1.
     
  20. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    I asked Ian precisely that, but I guess my question was not registered unfortunetely.

    Well I guess the wisps thing can be answered in some Tails Tube, since it's a small detail. The Master Emerald thing never made sense to me though, since he was supposed to hide it in the Hidden Palace.