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The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    I'd accept changes if they're good. I'm not about to accept crap.
    No one can explain what is gained from Sonic Origins' cutscenes, aside from very nice animations and the fact they're inconsistent even with the games they're framing.

    See this? This is a good change. I accept this change happily and easily, as it saves headaches on why Robotnik doesn't just beeline for another set of Chaos Emeralds while Sonic's on a different island.

    The cast being lobotomised, I don't agree is a good change.

    Which is always a good thing to hear about a series you love: "I'm resigned to it."

    I'm not. I've even given an example of how one could go about adding Sonic Spinball without compromising. I even agreed on a retcon of the Emeralds you find in the game, which was brought up by raphael_fc. How is that dismissing others?

    Or they could just leave the damn things alone. I just wanted a collection of the classic games, I didn't want them to rewrite anything. But of course, it's SEGA, and SEGA are a monkey's paw.
     
  2. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    I've always had the opinion that what is shown in the game is more important than what is written in the manuals. I think everyone has their limit of how much retcon do we need to make in order to fit everything. And since I'm also a nerd who spent too much time trying to fit everything with minimal changes, it might look like a lazy job to retcon too much. But again, we have to have retcons anyway, so I'm okay with them. As long as they maintain the core aspects of each adventure, which I think they did, in my opinion.

    Question from a non-native speaker: when we talk about some brand/corporate, like Sega, is it "Sega are" or "Sega is"?
     
  3. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    I would respectfully disagree, but I've long been outvoted. Just saying this so this post is still on topic for the following:

    I think both are applicable, it just depends on how you view a corporation. I view them as a collective group, so say "are" for the plural. Others may view the corporation as a single entity, so would say 'is'. Basically depends on your own point of view on corporations.
     
  4. Kyro

    Kyro

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    I really do not understand the frustration over the changes origins made. Ive always found the manuals to be a silly place to derive the story from when the games themselves did a fine enough job contextualizing the parts that were actually important. To me, the fact that even game to game has weird inconsistencies is enough for me to be pretty happy with how origins cutely ties each game into each other in completely nonoffensive, harmless ways, and even throws us bones like actually showing what other foxes in the classic series would be like to compare tails to. Thats awesome! It actually builds and shows us more of the world rather than just telling us about it
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2022
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  5. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    The frustration is that it removes a whole load of substance for nothing.

    In Sonic the Hedgehog 2's manual, we learn Tails is bullied, but a technological prodigy who admires the Tornado and attaches a rocket booster later on, setting up for Sky Chase Zone. Meanwhile, Sonic is aloof, letting someone do as they please but otherwise ignoring him, but when he sees someone keeping up with him he takes an interest.

    In Sonic Origins, we learn Tails gets bullied. That's it. No idea how he knows how to pilot. Sonic also is immediately friendly, removing a fundamental part of his character: aloof but always willing to do the right thing. It also rather contrasts with Sonic Adventure's cutscene where Sonic is ignoring Tails, who is following him... exactly like in the Sonic the Hedgehog 2 Japanese manual.

    In Sonic the Hedgehog 3's manual, Robotnik knows there's a massive Chaos Emerald energy somewhere underground on the island he can use to relaunch the Death Egg into orbit and is actively searching for it. He bumps into Knuckles while Knuckles is patrolling the island, and tricks the native, fair enough.

    In Sonic Origins, Robotnik knows exactly where the Master Emerald is, and Knuckles has seen him going for it, but not only does Robotnik proceed to ignore the Master Emerald for the entire game despite it being a jewel of infinite power that he could've used to get the Death Egg spacebound again, but Knuckles leaves the thing unguarded and unhidden from someone who knows where it is. Robotnik also instead builds and installs giant thrusters for the Death Egg, rather than simply retrieving the Master Emerald and shocking Knuckles if he tries to stop him, while Sky Sanctuary Zone shows it doesn't need the thrusters when powered by the Master Emerald.

    The plot falls apart when you actually apply the story to the game. They're facetious changes for no actual reason: no one has actually told me how these changes benefit the series, only that "I'm okay with them".

    But alas, the fanbase has decided they're okay. I am but one person who will not be buying Sonic Frontiers as a result.
     
  6. Zephyr

    Zephyr

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    Maybe Eggman made Knuckles think he wouldn't go for the Master Emerald anymore, after Knuckles made clear that it's off limits. Maybe Knuckles made him leave the Hidden Palace, and locked the door on the way out. Maybe Eggman now has to find a different way in, or has to play the long con, so as to not immediately re-rouse suspicion.

    Maybe the change is lateral, instead of positive or negative? The changes they made facilitated the creation of cutscenes (which had constraints on length, dialog, and text) bridging the games together. Some might view that as a positive.

    If we stick to the manuals though, I have a question: why was Eggman trying to leave the island before discovering the source of the massive Chaos Emerald energy? Did he just give up on that and add thrusters to it instead?
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2022
  7. Kyro

    Kyro

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    Forgive me, im on mobile, and i cant be bothered to deal with quoting specific individual parts to respond to so im just gonna broadly reply.

    I think sonic 2 is by far the least offensive of the opening animations, its actually my favorite, and I think your depiction of it is incredibly uncharitable. Aside from not really having the time to properly depict tail's skills with technology, nothing actually contradicts their personalities or introductions here. Sonic takes care of the bullies, and then immediately runs off to do his thing. He only acknowledges tails when the fox follows suit, and he gives off a sort of impressed demeanor before pushing on, spurring tails to work harder in keeping up and learning that he cannuse his tails like a rotor. Its cute and explains how tails could learn to do that and how to keep up with sonic. Sonic isnt immediately friendly, all he does is acknowledge tails and let him follow along.

    As for sonic 3, even assuming the original games intent was to depict robotnik as unaware of the Master Emeralds location, I dont think the change is actually too impactful. My take on why he wouldnt just immediately take the emerald is that he wants to gain Knuckles trust, and stealing it outright would simply be a last resort. He recognizes knuckles isn't bright, but can be a useful ally against sonic, one I imagine if circumstances would allow, he'd be more than happy to take advantage of as much as he can before backstabbing him later.

    As it stands, taking the master emerald becomes a last resort. We actually got some continuinty in one of the idw side issues (i think the annual? The one where they argue over hydrocity) that as the protector of the island, knuckles has a better understanding of the various paths and shortcuts, and knuckles knows where the death egg is. He needs knuckles to at least be preoccupied with sonic so he can take the emerald without resistance, and when that doesnt work, just shock the echidna instead. I dont see this as eggman being necessarily foolish, so much as resourceful and careful.

    With that said, ive always seen classic eggman as more of a bumbling mad scientist that shouldnt be taken too seriously, so i dont even mind the uncharitale interpretations, personally

    Edit: Also, what you want to buy is your perogative and im not in any way here to influence what you spend your money on, but harmless cutscenes that somewhat recontextualize the story of the classic games, which already had very weak throughlines and continuity, affecting your decision for a seperate product for a seperate canon, is simply very silly, to me. There are plenty of reasons to not look forward to frontiers. I dont think this is one of them
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2022
  8. Roller

    Roller

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    You're getting nerdsniped by fixating on Watsonian specifics. The Doylist situation is that the Sonic Origins intro cutscenes had to be like 40 seconds each and convey an abridged version of the original games' surrounding context (manuals, advertisment, promo material) without getting bogged down in too much detail. The fact that they have the coherence and broad-strokes consistency they do is a testament to the passion of the people making it.

    It's technically possible to get more in that runtime, but our friends at Powerhouse and SEGA were making a product for children to enjoy, not a rapidfire lore revolver; if it covers too much ground too quickly, the harder it is for that aspect of the target audience to follow along.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2022
  9. SuperSnoopy

    SuperSnoopy

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    If you don't wanna buy the latest 3D Sonic game because some animated cutscenes in a 30 year old game compilation aren't exactly the way you want them to be, I can't but feel this is a you problem more than a Sega problem. But hey, what do I know?

    People have worked really hard on storyboarding, animation etc. to tell each game's stories in 40 seconds or so (which is, believe it or not, not an easy task) and for you to just dismiss it all and call it "crap" doesn't sit right with me.
    It's clear you're really invested in this, but I suggest you take a break from this thread because the hate boner you have for Origins' cutscenes is starting to get you all emotional for no reason.

    Keep in mind this is all about a blue rat going really fast, ultimately.
    No need to get worked up over it, you'll be just fine. Yes, even if they put the game gear games after the megadrive ones, the dastards :argh:
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2022
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  10. Crappy Blue

    Crappy Blue

    Knuckles' Chaotix is a perfect game with no flaws Member
    We have got to stop talking about this conversation as if it's about whether Origins' changes are okay, or inoffensive, or anything, when it's clearly about multiple people attempting to express serious discomfort with the level of investment BlackHole has placed in the sanctity of the early Sonic the Hedgehog games' stories. The things I've quoted above are weirdly angry, depressive ways to talk about a work of media which was created with no relation to you and with no knowledge of you. It's concerning that this is how your relationship to the subject of Sonic continuity affects you when the rights holders and story tellers of Sonic games revise their work.

    If this keeps going unaddressed, the thread will continually come back to people being upset with you over menial Sonic plot opinions without anything changing or getting less charged. There's no value those participating in this thread ignoring the actual thing putting them on edge.
     
  11. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Well thank goodness there isn't a giant gaping crater in the ceiling...

    Sonic was on route and had blown up the Death Egg before. The Death Egg only launches on Robotnik's last stand failing in Launch Base Zone, after he set up a trap in Act 1 last minute, which we see. Most likely, it's the last-ditch option to prevent Sonic blowing it up again.

    35 seconds is plenty of time to show what's needed. Just have him emerge from a bush, see and run around the Tornado while schematics work in his head, then see and shy away from the resting Sonic before the explosion. If I find the motivation to continue the animatics I was working on, I'd demonstrate.

    Sonic also stops and cheers Tails on at the end of the cutscene.

    [​IMG]

    Clearly, the hedgehog hasn't lost any aloofness in their first interaction...

    Or he could electrocute the Echidna when he intervenes and make off with it then.

    This is the mad scientist who built a Death Star on his own, and the only reason he's been stopped is due to a supersonic hedgehog and super genius fox interfering. Bumbling is hardly the word I'd have used for him then.



    Oh look, I got closer to the Sonic the Hedgehog 3 manual within the same timeframe (34 seconds, removing the Death Egg crashing which was Sonic the Hedgehog 2's closer) in 48 hours of drawing. Clearly I'm some sort of super talented genieyus.

    That was a joke. I'm not talented in the slightest.

    I love how you both immediately assume this is the only issue and isn't simply the straw that broke the camel's back.

    Putting aside that they've messed up my favourite game of all time's story, I do not think the boost gameplay was good Sonic the Hedgehog gameplay and have found the characters gross parodies of their more interesting Adventure Era characterisations for several years now. If anything, I was interested in Ian Flynn becoming the writer for this and Sonic Frontiers and thought that might prove a good change, but after the mess made of these plots, the straw that broke the camel's back as mentioned, it's simply put me off completely.

    The only reason this hasn't come up here is because this is 'The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines', not the 'The Sonic the Hedgehog Gameplay Thread', so I've not brought up my issues with the gameplay, and I'm sure if you dig back through the pages you would find my criticism of the characterisations thereof. Do not think me so shallow as to write off a franchise for one slight.

    And I have repeatedly mentioned, the animation is gorgeous. I have confirmed this to Boxer Hockey, who worked on the animations, that the flaw isn't the animations at all, it's the storylines. Frankly, I'd have liked a series with their animation work.

    That's probably because I'm angry and depressed at the state of things. Of course they have no knowledge of me, why would they? Doesn't mean seeing one of my favourite things in the world going down the crapper, in my opinion, isn't going to affect me.

    And yes, I put emphasis on the manual stories, since they were developed around the game and told actually interesting plots. The fact that with 30 years of hindsight, we get stories that are, in my opinion, worse and interfere with the games themselves, and Sonic Adventure, and told "that's just how it is now" will, amazingly enough, agitate me.

    I'm not going to censor my thoughts and opinions. Point blank: I do not like Sonic Origins' story and I do not like how stories are being abandoned wholesale. I also know I have no say on it, that this is happening regardless of my opinion. But I'm also not about to staple a smile on my face, drink some coffee and say "This is fine."
     
  12. Kyro

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    Well, when you end a message saying "I am but one person who will not be buying Sonic Frontiers as a result." In context of sonic origins cutscenes, forgive me for not going deeper on that in my own reply, lol. As I said, there are plenty of reasons to not look forward to frontiers.

    In any case, this discussion seems moot, you clearly aren't going to back off on your feelings towards the games cutscenes, and judging by your response to my own analysis of the sonic 2 scene, you are dead set in being unforgiving and critical even to the smallest details. (I mean cmon, sonic cheers at seeing a dude learn how to fly before his eyes. Hes got an attitude, but hes not a total dickwad, you're just being uncharitable).

    Its ultimately why i abstained from engaging in the larger sonic fandom, twitter especially, for so long. People have their feelings about a blue speedy hedgehog and gets weirdly personal and emotional over details and changes they dont like and use it as a chance to dismiss everything about it.

    I think the discussion should move on, from what ive seen, the classic sonic game timeline is a disaster all on its own as is
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2022
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  13. SuperSnoopy

    SuperSnoopy

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    Six of us have come and told you maybe you should chill out a bit, but clearly we're all wrong and are blind to the genius that was the blurbs in the manuals of the megadrive Sonic games, and don't realise they're being ruined by the villains that worked on the 30 seconds bonus cutscenes in Origins. Clearly, they hate Sonic and everything the series stands for.

    I'm out. Have fun being miserable, I guess.
     
  14. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Sonic the Hedgehog 2 manual:

    One day, a few days after landing on the island, Sonic noticed that someone was following him.
    When he turned around, he saw that it was a small fox. When the fox noticed Sonic, it rushed to hide behind a palm tree. However, when Sonic started running, the fox did its best to follow him.
    "Well, I guess I'll let him do what he wants." Sonic decided, not really caring.

    He kind of was a dick then, not going to lie. Sees a kid following, "eh, whatever."

    Pretty much.

    Your post was about how I was being ridiculous for deciding to not buy Sonic Frontiers for my issues with the cutscenes. I pointed out I've got other issues with the series that have been mentioned before here, or not as they're irrelevant to the continuity thread. The cutscenes were simply the final straw.
     
  15. MykonosFan

    MykonosFan

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    Let me join in on that. Blackhole, you are absolutely allowed to hold the opinions you do. But the attitude you are presenting in nearly every post has made this thread unreadable for a while now. Please take some time away from the thread or reassess how you participate in it and read what others have said to you about this.
     
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  16. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    Excuse me, everyone, but I'd like to only make this remark...
    Erm... To me, that's not being a dick, just aloof, as expected of him.
    He didn't mind being followed, as long as it was no troublesome fella.
    In the end, it paid off. He got the best buddy he could get so far ^^
     
  17. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    So what do you guys think it's going to be the canon classic timeline, after the retcons?
    [Let be me clear, I'm not asking if any of you think it's already doomed from the start and it's going to suck or whatever; instead, how they are going to fit the games]

    To me it looks like no game at all is going to be placed before or during the events of Origins. They chose 1-CD-2-3K as the foundation of the series in the sense of how the adventures began. I think Sonic 1 is now the first ever fight between Sonic and Eggman (which is different from its manual). And every other classic game is going to be placed after 3K, including Tails Adventure (which is also different from its manual).

    I would guess they are going to fit every 16+ bit game in their release dates after 3K, and after those they are going to fit all the Game Gear games, and after that they are going to fit the arcade games (SegaSonic for example). The last game would be Mania.
     
  18. RDNexus

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    On that sense, I can say I disagree with their alignment.
    Games like the Tails spin-offs and SegaSonic could work as prequels to Sonic1.
    Spinball, 3D & R, I could accept on the long run. Even more so Chaotix.

    The 8-Bit games, I deem them a separate timeline of Classics.
    They're just HARD to mesh with the 16-Bit games.

    But mainly, I deem as relevant only the 4 Origins titles, the main ones.
    All the rest is kinda like spin-offs/side-stories to me.

    Even the Modern games have a good chunk of them I set aside as well.
    I'm much of a sucker for main console games ^^"
     
  19. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

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    At the risk of unintentionally antagonizing BlackHole further, In this case I would still defer to the Japanese manuals for 2 & 3 as the Japanese side of STI (which was essentially segregated from the rest of STI by choice) came up with the story and handled direction for those games. This was not the case with Spinball.

    Eggman had to pull those planets from somewhere in order to lock them into orbit around the Death Egg, much the same way he chained planets to his amusement park in Colors.

    Honestly, I do have to concur that one has to relax about these sorts of continuity changes, and I'm saying that in general to everyone. I'm a Trekkie and heaven knows how much canon's been twisted with that franchise recently. Getting upset about it isn't productive. Instead, I find it's more productive to try and work out how it could fit given those parameters. I will give Sega credit here in that they're actually trying now rather than throwing stuff out willy-nilly without a care in the world previously.
     
  20. Starduster

    Starduster

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    On the idea that no games take place before Sonic 1, I can accept that. I can very much understand wanting to enshrine the first release that way, but at the same time the beauty of the “silent” cutscenes is that they were deftly able to set up the threat of Eggman while maintaining the ambiguity of whether this is Sonic’s first tussle with him. Stuffing animals into robots could’ve been a new thing for him at this point.

    Regarding the Tails games, I don’t think they work as sequels, regardless of Origins showing that Tails only learned to fly after meeting Sonic. Tails is, as far as we know, native to Westside Island and, prior to meeting Sonic (and even for a long time after), suffers from low self-esteem and rolls over to bullies. If he can send an organised militia and a witch with her gang of mooks packing, why would some regular old bullies be a problem? I think placing those two games after the Death Egg saga makes more sense for Tails’ character development from his introduction through Adventure 2.