I know some people have asked multiple questions but its usualy over time. I mean, if stated respectfully, you could definitely ask about the original manual stories and the how's and why's to the changes while expressing displeasure in the discrepancies fitting a lot into one. It could probably give some insight into the specifics of how they went about it, what if anything Sega commented on about it, or hard lines they laid out. It's all about how it's handled, and the results could be worth it. And the more timeline and story questions we get the closer we can get to whatever is actually supposed to be going on. List of previous questions in this Bumbleking post to give an idea about what's been asked before. Usually threadnotes added in the youtube comments for specifics. https://bumbleking.com/bumblekast-qa-master-list/
The old Japanese manuals aren’t some sacred texts… the series hasn’t even paid any attention to them since the 2000s. They were generally closer to the games than what we got in the west but they still weren’t directly written by the original dev team, were they? And it’s not like they didn’t retcon themselves, either, with stuff like Knuckles being the chaos emeralds’ guardian, where the emeralds are from, etc. In reality, this stuff was always loose. I think you’ve made them into this untouchable thing in your mind and now that they’re openly (barely) being refuted it seems like you’re lashing out in this thread. To reference what you said before, yes, it’s making stuff up. It’s all making stuff up. That’s how lore works. It only seems less authentic now because we’re adults with internet access and the process is a bit more transparent with stuff like the Bumblekast or Twitter.
As I said earlier, it's been many years since I ignored what is said in Sonic 3's manual. And Sonic 3 is one of the most important games of the franchise. If I allow myself to ignore this, I can ignore pretty much any manual.
I ignore the manuals, but my issue with the cutscene in Origins is that it ignores the game too - the Death Egg obviously doesn't crash into Hidden Palace the first time because Launch Base is not even near Hidden Palace.
It seems to be implied that just the death egg robot’s remains ended up there, which is convenient but not entirely implausible seeing as it was right next to the open exit that Sonic ran out of at the end of Sonic 2. The rest of the death egg is nowhere to be seen in the cutscene.
Still, Eggman landing right inside the Emerald Altar in Hidden Palace in Origins intro screws up S3K's premise and jeopardizes the very game's plot progression. The premise hints at Eggman knowing of the emerald, but not its exact location, hence spending the game's time searching for it while repairing the Death Egg. On that sense, I can agree with BlackHole on how SEGA screwed up the continuity on that point.
I never said they were. But they are the original developers hard work, and I dislike that it's being thrown out. The games haven't paid much attention to Shadow the Hedgehog's backstory since 2005. I'm fairly certain if they revealed the ARK was never a thing in the games, we'd have a riot on our hands. Just because the games aren't mentioning it constantly doesn't mean they weren't important to how things played out. We're not goldfish, things can be left behind because the story is finished, we don't need Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Lost World and Sonic Forces saying "man, remember that time Robotnik crashed onto Angel Island in his Death Egg? Fun Times." but that doesn't justify going back and rewriting everything unnecessarily. You would think wrong. If you haven't noticed, I've mentioned several times I would agree retcons would be needed, meaning I'm fine with necessary alterations. It's unnecessary alterations that interfere with the game that draw my ire. I don't mind theorising on the old manuals as they were made without the benefit of 30 years of hindsight we have. These were made with said 30 years, and they somehow managed to mess it up. It's like the Star Wars prequels and my issues with them: Leia, about if she remembers her mother: "Just a little bit, she died when I was very young." Said mother, Padme, dying seconds after giving birth to Leia and Luke, when the only thing they would remember is her being forlorn and dying... Luke knew her longer, being the first born, but states he has no memory of her. 20 years of hindsight and this is what we get? Seriously? I think it's more I enjoy good stories that connect and thrive. The modern Sonic Team is not good at telling good stories: Sonic Forces immediately springs to mind. And now they're looking to apply this modern story telling to the original games. The original manuals had a detailed idea on what was happening at that point in the franchise. Sonic the Hedgehog 2's manual alone was talking about the ancient civilizations, the dangers of the Chaos Emeralds as they had wiped out that civilization, even introducing Tails to the Tornado to set up the Chekhov's Gun of his piloting for Sky Chase Zone. That work is now gone according to Ian Flynn, so yeah, I'm not happy, and I'm not going to pretend I'm happy about it. And yes, I know Sonic the Hedgehog 3 has that whole thing with dragon mural, but that would fall under the 'necessary' change mentioned above. Again, would change that to a mural on the other side showing Perfect Chaos, but that's just me. You seem to neglect the Death Egg Robot has to go through a smaller than itself hallway to get out the same exit as Sonic, as well as land in the crater of the volcano at an angle that would put Robotnik right in front of the Master Emerald. Instead of just crash-landing in the forest like the Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Taxman) had it. And no, there is no mention of the Death Egg Robot separating from the Death Egg wreckage. The text instead infers that Robotnik was in the Death Egg itself, the Death Egg Robot being separated was created by the Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Taxman) port. I didn't mind it then since I figured it was just a rough summary of the events between, did not think people would start using it as a basis and somehow messing up continuity between the games while using that exact same cutscene... Indeed. We now have to make up a lot more details to cover it compared to the original manual. Also, speaking of, Iizuka has given details that suggest the Super Emeralds are a separate set of Emeralds. Which would, in the sheerest of irony, cover the Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles manual for the Chaos Emerald issues. The Super Emeralds are what have left, and Knuckles collects the Chaos Emeralds from Sonic. Also having time to install the thrusters onto the Death Egg, but not enough time to grab the giant Chaos Emerald powerful enough to put the Death Egg into space alone....
Couple of things from the latest Sonic Origins Speed Strats video: It has now been affirmed that Knuckles' story definitely takes place after Sonic and Tails'. Of course, this could be inferred by various environmental details but it's nice to have up to date and explicit confirmation for easy reference. The Super Emeralds are the Chaos Emeralds after having transformed. Again, this is a pretty straightforward inference, but I think it's an opportune moment to explore some things. First is the stone Super Emeralds visible in Knuckles' exclusive LRZ2 route in Sonic Mania. I'd suggest that these are shells left behind when the Super Emeralds reverted to Chaos Emeralds again - think Cell shedding his forms again after he reverted to his larval state to travel to the past in DBZ. With that said, what causes the Chaos Emeralds to transform in the first place? We have very little to go off here since the situation in S3&K doesn't seem all that specific. Furthermore, if it is due to a set of consistently replicable factors, why don't Sonic and co. just have the Emeralds be super all the time? Perhaps in case they get into Eggman's hands, but the Chaos Emeralds are already infinite in their power when combined. To me, all this just continues suggests that the Super Emeralds aren't truly meant to exist within the canon and any references to them are easter eggs at best.
I assume you can only get the Super Emeralds if the Master Emerald is in Hidden Palace Zone, which it's not in Adventure 2.
It might be the altar itself for some reason. Every time we see 'enlarged' Chaos Emeralds in the series, Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles, Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2, there's an altar involved.
To those wondering, it's been hinted at that the Master Emerald holds some sort of self-awareness. I assume the Master Emerald sort of 'knows' when it's on an altar and when to upgrade the Chaos Emeralds. But that doesn't quite explain the giant emeralds that appeared in Sonic Adventure 2's final story.
Sorry for whats probably gonna be a big boring post, but I’m stuck on a long flight with nothing better to do so here goes: That’s true. But after rereading the English and Japanese manuals for both Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles, the only one where Eggman is actually searching for something is the Sonic 3 one, where he detects the 7 chaos emeralds below the surface, which subsequently disappear. That contradicts the intro of the game itself where Sonic has them, and the Master Emerald didn’t exist at this point in the lore. (At least as far as whoever wrote the manual knew. Presumably the writer only had access to the released Sonic 3 and not the rest of it that became S&K.) I always assumed Eggman knew where the Master Emerald was but was waiting for the perfect opportunity to steal it. Maybe that’s what the story group thought as well? There’s no actual continuity errors that way. I admit I do like the premise of him searching for it better though. They were “thrown out” a long time ago as the developers themselves barely acknowledged them in the games if at all. Feel free to correct me if you have some source that says otherwise, but I don’t think the Japanese manuals were even written by the developers themselves, but rather marketing people the same way the US/EU ones were. Things like Shadow’s backstory on the other hand are actual parts of the games themselves. It’s objectively different from flavor text in instruction manuals from the 1990s that haven’t been relevant since Sonic moved to 3D. I don’t see how anything in Origin’s cutscenes alter anything about the continuity between actual games outside of arguably[/] the S3 intro. Nothing from the cutscene meaningfully changes any of that stuff though. It’s just an abridged version of Sonic meeting Tails. It doesn’t happen exactly how the old manual describes it, but there’s plenty of room before or after it for Tails seeing the Tornado, or learning to spindash like the US manual, or anything like that. And the lore behind Westside Island could easily still be there. It wasn’t mentioned either way because, well… why would it be in a short animated intro? I fail to see how anything is meaningfully changed by it. True, the exit seems to be small, but keep in mind the whole thing is exploding. It’s not hard to handwave it as the explosion blowing a hole open and the Death Egg Robot’s wreckage being flung out. As for the angle and landing in front of the emerald shrine etc… it’s a cartoon. Even the Death Egg happening to land on a small floating island is contrived by real world logic. If your suspension of disbelief covers stuff like Tails knowing where to find (and somehow being able to perfectly catch) Sonic falling from the Death Egg but not this then maybe you’re just being selective about it. Who knows. The emeralds are just mysterious unknowable artifacts with a will of their own and no set rules. Presumably they could only do it that one time. Why? Same reason they can transport Sonic to Blaze’s world, or bring him back to life, or disappear into the special stages except when they don’t feel like it. They’re Mysterious McGuffins. They’re the Force of the Sonic world.
Wrong way: the Angel Island Chaos Emeralds disappeared first, implied to be when the Death Egg hit, and the Robotnik starts detecting a 'large Chaos Emerald signature', indicated to be the Master Emerald. Tails notices this as well: Also, the Master Emerald has existed since the conceptual stage, as evidenced in the recently released concept art in Sonic Origins: So yes, he was most likely detecting the Master Emerald even that early on. No continuity errors, just idiocy at it's finest. The man has enough time to construct thrusters on the Death Egg, but not enough time to have something collect the Master Emerald while Knuckles is distracted with Sonic? It's not like Knuckles would notice, since Angel Island can't fall out of the sky at that point so the only indicator it's gone would be if he saw it leaving. Pretty big presumption there. Please supply evidence they were thrown out. You keep saying they don't reference them, except that time Sonic Adventure showed Sonic ignoring Tails at their first meeting, which is contradictory to how Sonic treats Tails in the animation but matches the Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive) manual. Honestly, with the current continuity, can you honestly say they wouldn't? I mean, tell me, how often do they refer to the Black Arms from Shadow the Hedgehog? Can you tell me, with certainty, they're still canonical? I said game, as in the fact Robotnik's digging around Marble Garden Zone and Lava Reef Zone because ??? in Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles, rather than searching for the Master Emerald, since he's fully aware of where it is. According to Ian Flynn, that was their first meeting: Sonic saving Tails from the bullies and encouraging him to follow from the start, rather than noticing the kit following him and opting to let him do what he wants. I honestly think this subtracts from Sonic's character. In the manual, he's aloof and doesn't care that Tails is following him, but takes an interest when Tails shows he can actually keep up. The way it's written it's like he's used to people trying to keep up, but can never do, but when Tails actually does, it's enough for Sonic to actually pay attention. So much can be done in 45 seconds. It's amazing what you can get done in 45 seconds, I should try and free up more time to finish of those animatics... As for the extra information and lore, because they've gotten rid of pretty much everything else, why am I to assume they kept the rest? Just because it's a cartoon doesn't justify a trickshot and the stupidity that follows. Yes, Tails often catches Sonic with the Tornado, but that's because he's actively searching for Sonic and has been evidenced as intelligent (in the manual, nothing in the cutscenes). It's as simple a justification as that: I can also accept the Death Egg getting lucky and landing on a landmass rather than into the ocean it was heading for, a simple justification, but for Robotnik to also get lucky at the trajectory he was (newly) ejected from the Death Egg to not only make the crater, but avoid the massive Lava Reef Zone and land within the Hidden Palace Zone right next to the Master Emerald? There's suspension of disbelief and there's asking me to buy a suspension bridge. Of course I'm being subjective, I happen to actually like Sonic the Hedgehog and don't like being fed bullcrap. I'm not about to say "but it's Sonic, so everything is fine!" as I shovel it in. You'll find I also hate Batman v Superman for similar crappy plot reasons, despite my love of the Caped Crusader. Feel free to consider me subjective for that as well.
Again, you complaining about Eggman not catching the Master Emerald right away hits home on my assumption it's only because of gameplay issues.
Going by what see in the SA flashbacks and the altar in the ARK I just think that the Chaos Emeralds can be enhanced properly using the Master Emerald and shrines. But when they leave it then they revert back. Why are there shells in Mania? Honestly, this might be cope out but you could always just say Knuckles made them as decorations to show the altar in its true form, maybe even throw intruders off that might not be familiar with the emeralds. The shell theory is cool, but I agree with Iizuka that things should be kept simple when it comes to the emeralds' power/number.
Iizukia recently said that the Super Emeralds are in their dimension. So my Headcanon is those giant stone sculptures in Hidden Palace are used to channel the Super Emeralds. But the Chaos Emeralds need to be brought to the sculptures to channel them and they act as a vessel for the Super Emerald energy.
I would love for him to just stay silent. He's always making the lore more complicated... Just... just... leave this job to someone else, please.
