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The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Which begs the question of how, as the serum was destroyed and no one could really replicate it. Even the Winter Soldier project, as far as I can tell, never really got the serum down correctly, though they did appear to be close.

    Right, so Knuckles hasn't got a brain and will be tricked ad infinitum. I love these characters.
     
  2. Josh

    Josh

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    Yes. It happened again in Adventure, too.
     
  3. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    And in Advance 2.
     
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  4. Josh

    Josh

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    Ooh, and in Pocket Adventure! But NOT in Advance 1, that was a robot.
     
  5. Pengi

    Pengi

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    Yeah, even going back to Sonic 2 on Game Gear, the manual presents it as the next story after Sonic 1: "After Sonic's success in restoring peace to South Island, the evil clutches of Dr. Eggman, who is once again plotting to take over the world, are closing in."

    ("Well, technically, after Sonic 3 & Knuckles is still after Sonic saving South Island", some might say. But that's as silly a statement as "After World War II, Apple invented the iPhone".)

    Yeah, Tails Adventures never really made sense in relation to the Sonic Team/Mega Drive Sonic 2 continuity, in which Tails was born on born on West Side Island and was a bullied little kid with no confidence until he met Sonic.

    It's a matter of preference: either stick with the Japanese Tails Adventures manual, which breaks continuity with Sonic 2 MD, or adhere to Tails' Sonic 2 MD backstory and break continuity with the Japanese Tails Adventures manual.

    If they decide that Tails Adventures is no longer a prequel, but want an explanation for why Sonic isn't around (not that such a thing should be necessary), then they could say it happens the same time as the SegaSonic arcade game.

    You're ignoring both the explicit intent of the game's director, and what's actually presented in game.

    In Sonic Heroes, Charmy doesn't know who Dr. Eggman is. None of the other characters express familiarity with Team Chaotix, even though Amy and Espio should know each other from Sonic the Fighters. They don't talk about the last time they fought Metal Sonic, the last time he was transformed into a giant monster.

    Vector and Charmy are completely different from the descriptions presented in the Japanese Chaotix manual. Espio's somewhat matches, but in Heroes he's a year younger, is a ninja, and works under Vector, rather than being a solo detective. In Chaotix, Vector and Charmy weren't detectives at all.

    The events of the 32X Chaotix game are never brought up in any Modern Sonic game.

    Sonic Heroes, taken at face value, and directorial intent, simply does not mesh with 32X Chaotix.

    You can try to imagine all kinds of ways to try and make them fit, but let's not pretend that the intention isn't clear.

    If Sega ever does officially tie the continuity of the two together, then that will be the retcon, and will still require ignoring the original character profiles and Charmy's dialogue.

    Sonic Forces established Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic as separate dimensions, and Ian Flynn says it's best to think of Classic Sonic as "its own thing".

    Since Sonic 4 is a Modern Sonic game, its story isn't relevant to Classic Sonic.

    As for Modern Sonic, it might be best to assume that the only "classic" adventures that count are the ones that are directly referenced in Modern Sonic games. Essentially, 1, CD, 2, 3&K. Then it's Sonic 4, then Sonic Adventure.

    It's never stated that Knuckles was tricked by Eggman in Pocket Adventure, he just attacks Sonic for no particular reason. He's also holding onto the purple Chaos Emerald, which is returned to him in the end credits (or at least, one of the Chaos Emeralds is, the picture is sepia toned). No Master Emerald or Angel Island in sight!

    Why? They were released before Sonic Blast and do not contradict Sonic Blast.
     
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  6. Zephyr

    Zephyr

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    If timelines are merging and we get a mish-mash of the histories of both timelines, then the same could be true for the people within them. Back in the 90's DC and Marvel did some collaborative publishing under "Amalgam Comics" and mashed up various characters. [​IMG]

    It's not a binary thing of "is this Batman or is this Wolverine?" It's an amalgam of both.
     
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  7. Josh

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    True, true! This supports my headcanon that whether he's tricked or not, Knuckles just likes throwing down with Sonic.
     
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  8. Londinium

    Londinium

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    Guys what if basically what happened is that everyone had like amnesia
     
  9. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    I don't think we currently can take at face value what Forces said. The game was made with the premise of two worlds in mind, and that is long gone now. So if there is a possibility of a canon with no split timeline anymore, I think we should consider it.
     
  10. Pengi

    Pengi

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    The "split timeline" concept comes fans trying to make sense of the contradiction between Sonic Generations and Sonic Forces.

    In Generations, Classic Sonic is Sonic from the past. In Forces, Classic Sonic is Sonic from another dimension. So far there's been no in-game reconciliation of this contradiction, but "other dimension" is the current status quo until Sega officially says otherwise. If Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces were put together in the same dimension and continuity, then Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Eggman would all have to forget what the Phantom Ruby is between games, which would be more convoluted than what we currently have.

    Ian Flynn was asked about Classic-exclusive continuity a few weeks ago:



    55:45

    Q: Can Knuckles Chaotix, Sonic the Fighters and the Game Gear games be canon only to the "classic dimension" and not to "modern"? Is it possible?

    A: There is an answer to this, but I don't know if I can give it yet. Let's just say a very confusing and ambiguous "yes".


    More recently, there was this question:



    46:41

    Q: I think it’s safe to say that, while Classic Sonic is it’s own beast with the timeline split/alternate dimension stuff, that the events of Sonic Origins happened in both timelines. (Sonic 1, CD, 2 and 3&K) but there is something I’ve been wondering. In the modern timeline… how do you suppose the transition from Classic to Modern happened.. IN universe? What made Classic Eggman change his style to become modern Eggman, and so on?

    A: I'm going to have to abstain from this one. I know things and I am not clever enough to talk around them.
    [Kyle mentions Sonic Pocket Adventure, Ian says that Sonic Pocket Adventure isn't canon.]
     
  11. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    I know all that. I was the one who made the first question you quoted.

    And he didn't explain it. Firstly he said yes in "a very confusing and ambiguos" way, and later he abstained from answering. It's not set in stone. We don't know what things he know.
     
  12. Zephyr

    Zephyr

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    Even if it came from fans, Flynn's comments suggest it's now the official stance on the matter as well, even if it hasn't been stated in-game:

     
  13. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Honestly I hope they don't. They were able to easily get rid of two worlds because the text of the games never explicitly committed to it. Any further acknowledgement of the idea is just going to entrench the issue. It's not too late to avert this...
     
  14. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    If they are willing to retcon every detail possible in the classic games in order to make all of them canon, I don't see the need for two timelines. Just shove it all in one.
     
  15. The KKM

    The KKM

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    two worlds and split timeline are not the same thing? the question with the split timeline is just establishing a sort of in-universe parallel to the real world two separate brands. Classic Sonic as a brand is obviously not Modern Sonic, just like how it's not Boom Sonic or Movie Sonic.
     
  16. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    No. Two worlds was the idea of two planets, as in Sonic X; one with humans (Earth) and the other with furries (Mobius or whatever you wanna call it).
     
  17. Forte

    Forte

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    Am I the only one who's sad, that Shadow is still imprisoned in the classic dimension, and Chaos heart still rages on, while he's trapped in M.E ?
     
  18. _Sidle

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    Look on the bright side! Less people are dead/permanently messed up :D
    • Biolizard vibing on the Ark
    • Emerl gathering dust somewhere
    • the Black Comet slowly approaching
    • Mephiles chilling in his Scepter of Darkness (or maybe not existing at all, since Generations couldn't happen to make the classic split, in the timeline where the Solaris Project exists)
    • the two Gaias slumbering undisturbed
    • Jackal Squad still pillaging
     
  19. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    I don't recall Knuckles hopping into a Robotnik machine and attacking Sonic in Sonic Adventure...

    I'm going to dispute this one: we don't get any story in Sonic Pocket Adventure. If you want to interpret the fight as tricked by Robotnik, by all means do so, but there's no plot or even hint to Knuckles having been tricked by Robotnik.
    ...as Pengi noted, thank you kindly Pengi.

    Hey, still works. That's the fun of context. Also, they can just say it's after the second time, Sonic the Hedgehog (8-Bit) they meant.

    Quote the manual:
    He's simply moved there for a bit, he wasn't born on Cocoa Island. Cocoa Island otherwise seems isolated and I know when kids bullied me, I'd find as isolated a spot as possible.

    And you're acting as if he had final say at the time, and hasn't lied to us before.

    Ah yes, I forgot that part where the game stops so everyone can have a nice friendly chat about past battles, rather than prioritising Metal Overlord as he rages...

    Charmy should be well aware of Robotnik anyway. It's hard to miss someone announcing worldwide, hijacking all televisions in the process, that they're going to and actually blowing up the Moon.

    Well, Espio notes at the start of their segment "his tranformation seems to be still incomplete" suggesting some familiarity with events. They also don't question who Metal Sonic even is, which I find odder than them not bringing up past events.

    Why would we assume Amy and Espio encountered each other? Amy is in the desert, Espio is on Angel Island. The story is Sonic is collecting the Chaos Emeralds but picks a fight with Knuckles, so I would expect him to be the one encountering each of these characters as the titular character. As Team Sonic and Team Chaotix don't pick a fight nor meet one another until the giant robot dragon presents a more pressing issue to deal with, I see no reason to assume unfamiliarity. If anything, the lack of questioning what a Metal Sonic is suggests they are familiar with the blue blur.

    However, I found someone who translated more than the cutscenes, where they do show more unfamiliarity with Robotnik. So I would say Chaotix was non-canon at the time. Now, if I were to retcon this I would simply change the context to have the Chaotix probing Robotnik to see how familiar he was with them in the past, and Vector using this to confirm this isn't Robotnik they're fighting. This is just how I would retcon it, not the actual intent of the situation, just to save another argument with you.



    Not really. I mean, other than ages, but Sonic, Amy, etc, already had their ages changed, so that's just a given at this point.

    Vector can still believe in God while running a Detective Agency, if anything the Gaias below kind of give him credible reason to.
    Charmy can still be a proud, noisy person who can be the first insect to cross the speed of sound. Might check what it means by mature in his words though, that doesn't seem to match with that profile, let alone Sonic Heroes.
    Espio can still be interested in the Ancient Civilization while being a ninja. If anything, his hobbies support it:

    Hobbies: Combat training, intelligence gathering

    Knuckles is on South Island looking to punish Robotnik during Sonic Blast, rather than anything to do with the Chaos Emeralds. I would operate under the assumption he would get on that right after the events of Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles, which I would assume is what he's seeking revenge for.

    I treat it as a neat little subplot with Sonic Triple Trouble and Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles. I know you don't consider the former a prequel, before you start, hence "I".

    Funny thing, I've got a plot idea for a world where Shadow wasn't awakened, but the Black Arms invade, and the consequences therein. Just need to continue figuring out Unity...
     
  20. Plorpus

    Plorpus

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    Mark me down as another person who assumed Segasonic happened before the other games. In hindsight I don’t really know why. Maybe the comics? It doesn’t it doesn’t really matter when it happens though, like most of the other classic games. Sonic 1 - CD - 2 - 3K have always been the main group of games and it makes sense for everything else to happen afterwards. That being said I don’t really like that they’re bringing the Game Gear games and Spinball into canon… the former don’t really fit in without making up head canon excuses (no offense meant to those of you who do) and the latter doesn’t make sense with its numerous chaos emeralds and the presence of the freedom fighters.