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The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    It looks like it's another case of evolving languages.

    retcon
    /ˈrɛtkɒn/
    noun
    (in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.
    "we're given a retcon for Wilf's absence from Donna's wedding in ‘The Runaway Bride’: he had Spanish Flu"

    verb
    revise (an aspect of a fictional work) retrospectively, typically by introducing a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events.
    "I think fans get more upset when characters act blatantly out of established type, or when things get retconned"

    I know it as the noun here, you're using the verb definition.

    But Vader as Luke's dad is a retcon. It was not the plan at the start, but it was retconned in, making an odd amount of foreshadowing.

    It also shows Robotnik crashing in to the Hidden Palace Zone in one hell of a trickshot by the Death Egg. I'm fairly certain I've said I ignore those in favour of the manuals.

    If you want, you can say Robotnik came down, fought Sonic for a bit, then went back up when he realised the Death Egg was still intact but now crashing to try and salvage it before it did so, leading to the cutscene. Well, if others want, I know you won't.

    Yeah, that would've been a neat thing to answer, but alas...
     
  2. Pengi

    Pengi

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    I don't understand what the problem is? The Death Egg doesn't crash into Hidden Palace Zone. The remains of the Death Egg Robot, with Eggman still inside, is what crashes into Hidden Palace Zone. Even the Japanese Sonic 3 manual says that Eggman managed to escape from the Death Egg.

    You can do that, but Sega is doing the opposite.

    It doesn't work. Eggman is still in the Death Egg Robot. The scene immediately follows the end of Sonic 2.

    Why should Sonic Labyrinth, a game released in 1995, be shoe-horned between two games released in 1992 and 1994? What is gained? It clearly wasn't the intention then and it definitely isn't the intention now. Inserting any story involving Eggman or the Chaos Emeralds between Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 breaks the continuity between those two games.
     
  3. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    And encountered Knuckles in a forest.
    I don't know about you, but I don't recall forests being made of brick...

    Not in the manuals. Well, it's possible, but unmentioned.

    I'm getting real tired of you using the term shoehorn for things I'm talking about.

    Last I checked, Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (8-Bit) came before Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive), let alone Sonic the Hedgehog 3. Which means it had the plot involving Robotnik and the Chaos Emeralds after Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive) was a thing long before Sonic the Hedgehog 3 was being developed. So hey, look, they shoehorned a plot in before the game came out, the monsters.

    At the same time, and say it with me now: the manual is vague and open on time scales. It's not like the modern remakes, where they have the direct connection, the only actual connection in the manuals are mentioning that after Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive), the Death Egg has NOW started falling out of orbit. "Now", no time frame. Could be immediate, like you suggest, could have taken a while, as in it's only now just started falling, such as the alarm is only now going off 10 minutes late.

    I'm working off the manuals. I will always work off the manuals. You can try and shove Sammy SEGA's alterations into my face all you want, but I will still use the original, least filtered story for continuity. You can complain all you want, it's not going to change a thing.
     
  4. Pengi

    Pengi

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    There's nothing in the manuals that suggests Sonic Labyrinth takes place before Sonic 3. Trying to fit it before Sonic 3 doesn't solve any continuity problems, but it does create continuity problems.
     
  5. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    There's nothing in the manuals that suggests Sonic the Hedgehog (Mega Drive) takes place before Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive). It's called context with a good dose of speculation. I'm not saying I'm correct in my placement, but this is where I think it goes based on the context around the game's story.

    By all means, place it after Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles if you wish, I'm not going to try forcing my placement down your throat like you keep trying to. I'd be happy to hear why you'd think it goes there based on what you find and the speculation, I find differing people's thoughts interesting and like to debate because I like to see said different viewpoints in full.

    Constantly telling me I'm shoehorning something in irritates me, because amazingly enough, I did look into it and concluded the outcome. You're invalidating my effort because "well it can't be there because the new cutscenes, which also ignore the original manual, doesn't show it outright!" Amazingly, that might annoy me.

    By all means, show me the part of the manual where the Death Egg starts falling immediately. No vague "now starting to fall", show me the line where it says "After Sonic blew up the Death Egg, it's wreckage immediately fell out of the sky."
     
  6. Pengi

    Pengi

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    What's the context for Sonic Labyrinth being a prequel to Sonic the Hedgehog 3?
     
  7. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Simple answer is that it focuses on Sonic, and mentions Tails, but zero mention of Knuckles, despite his being very much interested in the Chaos Emeralds and their misuse at this point in time. Not even a "Perhaps Knuckles could... no, I'll do this on my own!" even though Knuckles was a hot commodity at the time, and I'm sure he would be aware that the Master Emerald would more than work on whatever Robotnik did to the shoes with the Chaos Emeralds.

    I also believe it's relatively early on, since Robotnik is trying to humiliate Sonic, not kill him outright like Sonic Blast's later attempt. Basically, Robotnik is in the state midway between "Wow, will I really get that crazy?" and "OHOHOHOHOH-HOOHOO-OHOOOHOOHOO*coughcough*-HOOHOO-HOOOHOHO!", where he's genuinely angry, but only wants to defeat and humiliate the hedgehog. Killing comes later, after the destruction of the Death Egg, which is when he pulls a gun.

    It's not solid evidence, of course, but contextually the lack of Knuckles in a plot directly using the Chaos Emeralds? At a time where the only two games not using him are this game and Tails' Skypatrol, which is outright connected to this game?

    At the same time, I'm interested to hear your placement and the context around it.
     
  8. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Hold on, doesn't Sonic 2 8-bit have to come after Sonic 2 16-bit due to the Mega Drive manual stating that Sonic meets Tails after touching down on Westside Island? At any rate, Labyrinth doesn't have to mention Knuckles in order to take place after Sonic 3. It makes sense to mention Tails because he's Sonic's inseparable little bro so it'd be odd for him to not be around (perhaps Tails' Sky Patrol takes place concurrently?), but Knuckles has remained an independent character since the Death Egg Saga, largely keeping watch over Angel Island. His primary concern is the Master Emerald and keeping that safe to prevent the island from falling to the ocean, and the dude isn't omniscient so I don't think he's required to be here just because the Chaos Emeralds are.
     
  9. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    But that is basically what happens in Sonic 4, even if the game says it happens right after after Sonic 3k, not before. It's definitely an inconclusive argument for Labyrinth's placement.

    Yep, both Sonic Labyrinth's and Tails Skypatrol's manuals state Tails went on a solo adventure.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2022
  10. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Indeed, I'm fully aware my evidence is circumstantial. But there's no real counter to the placement either. Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (8-Bit) already has its place in between Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive) and Sonic the Hedgehog 3, which means games can take place in the period. The cast in question indicates something early, before the cast began to grow, even if they came out around 1995.

    Yes, Sonic the Hedgehog 4 went back to just Sonic and Robotnik, but that's due to the current fear of alternate character SEGA has had since 2010.

    At the same time, this is why I've said, repeatedly, it's not perfect and I'd be interested to hear where other people would place it based on the story and context.
    Yeah, that's what I've said about the placement. It has a sweet little continuity nod as well:

    Sonic Drift 2, Sonic Blast, Sonic the Hedgehog 3D: Flickies Island, Chaotix, Sonic R, Sonic the Fighters and Sonic Pocket Adventure all very much disagree with this assessment...
     
  11. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    I'm not sure I can agree with this as a convincing argument not to place Triple Trouble after 3K. Because, firstly, this wouldn't be an exclusive problem to Triple Trouble. Adventure 1 and Advance (1? 2? I don't remember) also have Knuckles being tricked by Eggman after being electrocuted by him in 3K. Secondly, because as much as you can argue Knuckles should not trust Eggman after being electrocuted, he also should not trust Eggman after being imprisoned in a cage. Okay, the game does not directly say it was Eggman who captured him, but since the cage was right after where Sonic and Eggman fought each other, and since Fang is dumb, it's very very very much likely that Eggman was the one who did it. Knuckles is tricked by Eggman so many times so far that he is an idiot regardless when Triple Trouble happens. The order of the events doesn't matter much.
     
  12. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    He's tricked twice after Sonic the Hedgehog 3.

    Sonic Adventure - where he's tricked, but not working with Robotnik. He just tells Knuckles Sonic is also after the Master Emerald and let's Knuckles' hotheadedness do the work. If anything, that compliments the idea of Sonic and Knuckles still fighting after shaking hands. That also hardly means he's going to hop into Robotnik's mecha.

    Sonic Advance 2 - This is an oddity, I'll fully admit. But honestly, I think there's a reason we're not seeing: considering the proximity to Sonic Heroes and introduction of Cream the Rabbit, I'm fairly convinced he was tricked by Metal Sonic into thinking Sonic had genuinely gone rogue this time, like how Team Rose thought Sonic had Froggy and Chocola. This is, of course, speculation of the purest kind.

    Still, that's hardly a constant.

    Fang isn't dumb, just overconfident in his abilities and a trickster. But he's otherwise cunning.

    So yes, I think he was the one who tricked Knuckles into a cage.
     
  13. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    If you are willing to speculate it was Metal Sonic (who barely speaks and was present in Triple Trouble) who tricked Knuckles in Advance 2, despite the game saying it was Eggman, you could speculate it was Fang who tricked Knuckles in Triple Trouble, despite the manual saying it was Eggman.
     
  14. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Sorry, that's my being an idiot: I meant Robotnik used Metal Sonic to trick him, what with the liquid metal stuff that was happening around that time, I assume Robotnik had some control over Metal Sonic before the whole going rogue thing. Shift into Sonic, do some attacking, bolt, have Robotnik swoop in and say "oh hey, Sonic's evil now, you should go deal."

    Did we ever get an explanation for that, anyway?
     
  15. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    Slowdown shoes are also present in competition mode of S3K, so it might not be a one-time thing or even a that-time thing.
     
  16. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    I mean, in that instance it's simply a powerup, and in a multiplayer segment. Are multiplayer segments in the games canonical? And are powerups? Sonic must have a lot of lives saved up, makes me wonder how Mephiles did the thing...

    Basically, it's the one instance we have it happen in story unquestionably, and also covers jumping: the slowdown shoes in the multiplayer do not stop Sonic jumping if I recall correctly, only slowing him down.
     
  17. Forte

    Forte

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    Trying to place SMS titles in main timeline is too much of a headache in my opinio. I'm placing the 8-bit games in different dimensions in my headcanon.

    Yeah, that's right. There's Classic Sonic and 8-bit Classic Sonic now.
     
  18. charcoal

    charcoal

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    I've always assumed them to be non-canon, similar to the Advance or Rush games.
     
  19. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Those are canon, hence Blaze's presence in modern games.

    It's one of those things where people want the portable games to be canon but don't want the portable games to be canon.
     
  20. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    All games are canon except the ones that are not.