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The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    True Story, had forgotten that one.
    Heck, they sure make it hard to us.
     
  2. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Not me, this is why I futureproofed and figured out where I think the Game Gear titles go.

    Feel free to debate about Sonic Triple Trouble, though I maintain it's between the Death Egg Crash and Sonic the Hedgehog 3. Also makes for an amusing trilogy with them and Sonic Blast.

    I might draw or animate something to better show how I think that occurs, since the animatic seems to have better shown people my thoughts and I am very bad with words...
     
  3. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    Split timeline is coming to solve everything.
     
  4. Starduster

    Starduster

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    I mean, Labyrinth can fit just about anywhere, no? It being canon is a far less contentious and consequential issue than something like Triple Trouble or Chaos.
     
  5. Pengi

    Pengi

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    The Japanese manual mentions Tails, so it has to take place after Sonic 2 Mega Drive. And since that game leads directly into Sonic 3 & Knuckles, it would have to take place after that as well.
     
  6. Starduster

    Starduster

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    That's not super demanding then. My point is that Labyrinth isn't so convoluted and contradictory that you'd have difficulty placing it.
     
  7. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    Iirc Sonic Labyrinth implied that Sonic's speed comes from his shoes, and that's why Eggman replaced them.
     
  8. Starduster

    Starduster

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    I thought Eggman replaced Sonic's power sneaks with specific slow down shoes?
     
  9. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    They're slowdown shoes.

    it's vague. It could, it could not lead.

    So why is one Game Gear game canon but the rest not?

    Considering this was modern Sonic saying it, then that means it happened pre-split. Your split has no power here.

    Anyway, I decided to run through the manuals and check the stories for any continuity details, just so everyone can figure out where they want to go.

    Sonic the Hedgehog (8-Bit)

    Sonic the Hedgehog (8-Bit) is a bit of an odd one: the game is obviously meant to be the same events as Sonic the Hedgehog (Mega Drive), which is why I'll usually merge the two into one (with the idea the level is happening one after another). However, the manual is vague in it's description of preceding events. Technically, it does not mention Robotnik turning the animals into robots, like the Mega Drive counterpart:

    The game could feasibly work as a prequel to the events of Sonic the Hedgehog (Mega Drive), due to this.

    Of course, the following line in the Mega Drive manual is where the single quote of the Master System manual comes in, so we can also consider it the same event:

    Ultimately up to the individual's interpretation.

    Events that must have occurred: None


    Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (8-bit)

    Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (8-Bit) establishes itself as following the events of Sonic the Hedgehog (either):

    However, the manual informs us that Sonic and Tails are friends at this stage:

    Meaning that the events of Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive) should have occurred at this point, amusingly making this game a sequel to it's counterpart, as the Mega Drive version is where Tails first encounters Sonic, where he's too shy to approach him, and the manual and game otherwise indicate Sonic spends all of that game on West Side Island

    Furthered by the Character Bio in both:

    Events that must have occurred: Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive)


    Sonic the Hedgehog Chaos (Sonic & Tails)

    The story of this game is vague enough that you can place it anytime after Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive), due to the above notation of Tails' introduction preventing any game with him occurring before that. There is an interesting quirk of the Character Bios, however: they are indicated to be written by Tails, who refers to Robotnik returning for a third time:

    This, amusingly enough, would be Tails' third encounter with Robotnik if we just take them as release order:

    1. Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive)
    2. Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (8-Bit)
    3. Sonic the Hedgehog Chaos

    However, take this with a grain of salt, as Tails also refers to the players, breaking the fourth wall, so is more likely referring to this as the third Master System/Game Gear game.

    Events that must have occurred: Sonic the Hedgehog (either), Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive)


    Sonic Drift

    Don't give me that look, it's a Game Gear title.

    The manual plot is once again vague, but we can gauge from the cast what it must follow at least: Tails indicates once more it's position after Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive), but Amy Rose also indicates the events of Sonic the Hedgehog CD precede it. This is not set in stone, however, as neither indicates itself as the first meeting of Sonic and Amy, though Sonic the Hedgehog CD refers to the meeting there as the fateful encounter in the character profile. Make of this what you will.

    Events that must have occurred: Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive)
    Events that may have occurred: Sonic the Hedgehog CD

    Sonic the Hedgehog Triple Trouble (Sonic & Tails 2)

    Ah, the infamous game with the infamous appearance of the "stranger", Knuckles, after his appearance in Sonic the Hedgehog 3.

    I'll spoil my musings below, as there's a lot.

    Let's look at the story to see if we can get definitive with this:


    The whole thing, just to avoid people claiming I'm presenting cherry-picked pieces.

    Now, the first thing we should note is Knuckles' unfamiliarity with the cast.

    Indicating Sonic and Tails have not met the Echidna yet, thus it must be before his series introduction in Sonic the Hedgehog 3.

    Let's compare the details of Knuckles' bios to figure out what's happening here.

    Now, they pretty much match up. Robotnik tells Knuckles that Sonic is after the Chaos Emeralds, Knuckles is fooled and decides he will stop Sonic.

    Now, the Sonic the Hedgehog 3 manual states the lie is how Knuckles' challenge to Sonic began. At the same time, we never actually see Sonic and Knuckles meet in the manual's story, meaning what we see in the game is what we interpret it as.

    Let's look at Robotnik's involvement as well:

    So Robotnik is currently hiding, but lost the six collected Chaos Emeralds while testing 'the final weapon'.

    This lines up with the ongoing events of Sonic the Hedgehog 3, where Robotnik was hiding out on Angel Island repairing the Death Egg. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want to go into orbit, laugh maniacally, only to find the Death Egg's weapons are duds: he'd test those eye blasts. Imagine the Atomic Destroyer accidentally launching six Chaos Emeralds into space...

    Point is, the stories are otherwise lining up:

    Robotnik is in hiding (unknown/Angel Island), building a dangerous weapon (Atomic Destroyer/Death Egg). Knuckles has been tricked by Robotnik into thinking Sonic is the villain.

    But why would Knuckles leave Angel Island? Personally, I believe it's this line that gives us context:

    Sonic and Tails had sensed something strange going on and were taking action.

    Is it so farfetched to think that perhaps Knuckles had the same sense, but misinterpreted it as Sonic doing something and deciding he couldn't just wait for the hedgehog on the island with the Chaos Emeralds at risk, thus taking action and assisting Robotnik in trying to stop Sonic?

    This is, of course, interpretation, as it's not made clear why Knuckles would leave Angel Island. He is seen piloting one of Robotnik's machines, however, indicating the how, though.

    To summarise the timeline of events I'm suggesting:

    [Sonic the Hedgehog 3] The Death Egg Falls onto Angel Island, leading Knuckles and Robotnik to meet.
    [Sonic the Hedgehog 3/Triple Trouble] Robotnik lies to Knuckles about Sonic. Knuckles decides to challenge the hedgehog while Robotnik hides away to repair the Death Egg.
    [Sonic the Hedgehog Triple Trouble] Robotnik tests the Atomic Destroyer weapon, possibly the eye cannons of the Death Egg, which accidentally loses the Chaos Emeralds he managed to collect.
    [Sonic the Hedgehog Triple Trouble] Sonic and Tails sense something amiss and begin investigating. Theoretically, Knuckles would sense something similar and decide the Chaos Emeralds being off Angel Island is too much of a risk. Robotnik looks to retrieve the Chaos Emeralds once more. Fang the Sniper has managed to collect five of them instead.
    [Sonic the Hedgehog Triple Trouble] Fang seems to be present in the Atomic Destroyer and runs off when Robotnik presents himself, implying he's not supposed to be there. Considering Knuckles' state, the implication can be furthered that Fang trapped Knuckles, not Robotnik, while trying to claim the sixth Chaos Emerald after losing the other five.*
    [Sonic the Hedgehog Triple Trouble] Sonic finds Knuckles in a cage, frees him and they shake hands. This can be seen as him thanking the hedgehog, but not necessarily absolving Sonic of being a villain. Both depart independently of one another.
    [Sonic the Hedgehog Triple Trouble] Sonic and Tails fly to an island in the credits as the sun sets. This marks the close of the second day of Sonic the Hedgehog Triple Trouble (first day being before Sunset Park), the entirety of the game taking place over two days.
    [Sonic the Hedgehog 3] While on said island, Sonic finds a small ring engraved with ancient characters, which alerts him and Tails to Angel Island. They make their way there.
    [Sonic the Hedgehog 3] Knuckles catches Sonic's arrival and furthers his challenge for the Chaos Emeralds with a surprise attack, claiming all seven.

    *Fang is expressly a third party interested in the Chaos Emeralds, independant of Sonic and Robotnik's fighting. If anything, he's a proto-Rouge, really.

    Of course, this relies on interpretation of events.

    The summary of evidence for any placement is:

    • Knuckles was tricked by Robotnik into thinking Sonic is a villain, same as Sonic the Hedgehog 3.
    • Robotnik is hiding, same as Sonic the Hedgehog 3.
    • Sonic and Tails are unfamiliar with the 'stranger' Knuckles. We don't get the story of their first encounter in Sonic the Hedgehog 3.
    • Knuckles is using Robotnik's robots to fight Sonic.
    • (A) Metal Sonic is despatched to fight the heroes at one point.
    • Fang or Robotnik has locks Knuckles in a cage at the end: can be seen as either, as Fang otherwise has no reason to be in the area, nor flee Robotnik when Robotnik comes hopping along if he's supposed to be there.
    • The game ends with Sonic and Knuckles shaking hands after the former frees the latter from a cage, then Sonic and Tails departing to an island.

    It is entirely up to the person to determine if they would place it before or after Sonic the Hedgehog 3's events. I'd say just before in a retcon (an actual retcon, not changing the story and calling it a retcon), but this is a long, long debate that I do not want to cause another argument.

    Events that must have occurred: Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive), Sonic the Hedgehog CD, Sonic the Hedgehog 3 Manual
    Events that may have occurred: Sonic the Hedgehog 3


    Sonic Drift 2

    Basic manual plot: this is the second Chaos Emerald GP, so must be after Sonic Drift.

    Knuckles, Fang and Metal Sonic all indicate this game takes place post-Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles and Sonic the Hedgehog Triple Trouble, though if you consider the latter post-Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles, you can place this game prior to it as neither makes clear if this is Fang's first interaction with the group.

    Events that must have occurred: Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive), Sonic the Hedgehog CD, Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles, Sonic Drift
    Events that may have occurred: Sonic the Hedgehog Triple Trouble


    Tails' Skypatrol

    The basic manual plot is that Tails has decided to go have an adventure of his own. He is friends with Sonic and knows of Robotnik, so must take place after Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive). Nothing further to indicate any placement.

    Also, Witchcart is confirmed human:

    Coulda just said "mysterious figure" but they put Human in there.

    Events that must have occurred: Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive)


    Tails Adventures

    This one expressly places itself as a prequel, before Tails met Sonic.

    Not really much more I can decipher otherwise.

    Events that it must precede: Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive)[/quote]


    Sonic Labyrinth

    The game actually ties itself to the plot of Tails' Skypatrol, so anything preceding it, precedes this.

    Events that must have occurred: Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive), Tails' Skypatrol manual backstory


    Sonic Blast

    Sonic Blast has Knuckles seeking to punish Robotnik. That's not interpretation, that's literally what is said:

    Considering Knuckles is present on South Island before the incident with the Chaos Emerald, it can be inferred the punishment is for what happened during Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles. Either way, that game must precede this one. The manual otherwise does not have any ties to other games.

    Events that must have occurred: Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles

    Feel free to interpret as you please.
     
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  10. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Never said they are. Tails' Adventure fits comfortably into canon, as does Sonic 2 8-bit, but Triple Trouble just causes headaches. I never said Labyrinth is the only game that's canon out of the GG stuff, just that it's easy to fit.
     
  11. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    My bad, I misremembered.

    Depends on when the split happened.

    Triple Trouble fits easily if they retcon the "Knuckles is a stranger" thing.

    I'm pretty sure they are going to shove every GG game, Knuckles Chaotix, 3D Blast and R (and whatever is left) after 3K somehow. I don't know how Mania would fit in this, and I don't know if the timeline is actually split for good (I mean, defined canonically in some game or Tails Tube), but I feel this is what is going to happen.

    If Ian is in charge of that, I imagine him arranging the games into two timelines, because of the mandates, but with a single timeline in mind, because he doesn't like the split. So in the future they could easily throw the split timeline out of the window.
     
  12. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    That's not a retcon, that's changing the plot entirely.
     
  13. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    That's only a single word in the manual.
    If you remove it, nothing else changes. The plot of the game does not depend on whether Knuckles is or is not a stranger.
     
  14. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    It's turning a stranger to the two into someone whose life and duty they saved and returned into someone out to kill them. So it changes Knuckles' plot entirely.

    I don't know why everyone in this fanbase decries Knuckles as an idiot, but is also determined to make him an idiot via trusting a man who electrocuted him and stole his life's duty over the two who saved and recovered said duty.

    Also, it's still not a retcon. A retcon is a new detail added, resulting in a new interpretation. Darth Vader being Luke Skywalker's father is a retcon, for instance: it removes nothing, but adds a vast amount of new interpretation into A New Hope. There's a reason it's called retroactive continuity.
     
  15. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    What? No it's not. This is not what a retcon is. Retcon can be a change in what was said previously, or even a removal of anything said previously.
    The best example I have in mind is Saint Seiya, the manga. They removed the year 1986 of the beginning of the manga because they adopt the year 199_ for the end of the manga, and clearly not even 1 whole year had passed.
    Darth Vader being Luke's father is not a retcon, because the plot was still in development, it's just a revelation of the plot. We were led to believe Darth Vader killed Luke's father, but that was intentional. A retcon is more like "Yeah, I have written this, but ignore it".
     
  16. Pengi

    Pengi

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    Sonic Origins
    shows Eggman crashing into the Hidden Palace Zone in the remains of the Death Egg Robot. The story leaves no room for Eggman to travel to South Island and swap Sonic's shoes. It would also break the continuity of Sonic having all 7 Chaos Emeralds from his adventure in Sonic 2 at the start of Sonic 3. Sonic Labyrinth has to take place after Sonic 3 & Knuckles.
     
  17. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    How did Origins explain the missing seventh Emerald in Sonic 1?
    I saw a video in which the six Emeralds were flying towards West Side Island and then the seventh one joins them, but where did it come from?
     
  18. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    Seems to me they cared little about explaining that change from Sonic1 to Sonic2.
    It simply happens, no visual cues that explain anything of it ^^"
     
  19. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Yeah that’s something I’d really like to see cleared up. Given how nonchalantly it’s depicted, maybe Frontiers will give us a hint, given that may be concerning itself with Chaos Emerald lore.
     
  20. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    54:00
    - @BKQA Just as Chaos and the Chaos Emeralds are related to each other, could Solaris and the Sol Emeralds be related too from an unknown event? Not only they share the name (the Latin word for "sun"), but that could also somehow explain Blaze's presence in Sonic 06.

    - Maybe... but then it begs the question of why is a fire god from Sonic's world tied to the gems of Blaze's dimension. There is the theory that, after the end of 06, Blaze went to the dimension and basically founded it, but that doesn't jive with other story content. (...) I don't know.