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The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Kids Next Door: N.E.G.A...
    I want him to be Hugh. Dr. Hugh Robotnik.
     
  2. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Omg they called Shadow "Dark Sonic."

    I'm famous everyone lol
     
  3. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Random trivia: I'm going through the Sonic games to figure out how long each take, as well as if there's any notes of time between them. Sonic Forces takes place over what could be a year.

    The main campaign has a six month gap between the opening and events we all know. Episode Shadow, being a prequel, also has the bulk of event take place one month before that, and the part where Shadow beats Infinite before he becomes Infinite takes place 'several months ago...' before that. The Translation has this as two months, but Windii retranslated it otherwise.

    Several = more than two (ironically), but not many. I generally say three to seven, for several, so this game could legitimately be a full year on it's own, and at the least taking place for approximately 10 months minimum.

    Fun fun.
     
  4. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    I think the longest time intervals are Forces and Sonic 4, during months each.

    From Sonic CD to Sonic 4 at least 1 year must have passed, due to Little Planet's timy thingy thing.
     
  5. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Yeah, I've got that noted down. Might be 11 months, since Sonic the Hedgehog CD could be at the end of the month and Sonic the Hedgehog 4 Episode II is its return, but that semantics. Funny though, Sonic Forces would be able to show the Little Planet in the same game twice, had it appeared.
     
  6. Levi Church

    Levi Church

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    When talking about the name of Robotnik in TailsTube episode they do show that clip of Classic Eggman saying "nobody calls me that anymore".
     
  7. Pengi

    Pengi

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    Agreed. Taken as-is, it simply wasn't intended to fit in with the continuity of Sonic 3, it's an alternate story.

    The easiest way for Sega to fit it into Classic Sonic continuity would be to ignore/retcon the bit about Sonic and Knuckles not knowing each other and come up with a new explanation for why Knuckles was tricked by Eggman a second time.

    We've gone over why this isn't plausible numerous times, and I expect Sonic Origins' Story Mode to make the Sonic 2 to Sonic 3 connection even tighter.
     
  8. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    You act like I agreed with you any of those times. I did not. I'm quite happy to take the section "After Sonic 2's Adventure..." to simply cover the Death Egg's story, since that's he only part of the story covered by said header, while Sonic, Tails and Robotnik continued their feuds on Earth.

    I also expect it. Much like The Legend of Zelda's remakes and remasters, I'm not going to take them as canon, since that's an extra filter of interpretation that will inevitably be thrown around even if it contradicts the original stories.

    How did they handle that in the Japanese version of TailsTube, do you know?
     
  9. Pengi

    Pengi

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    Ian Flynn says the Sonic Origins Story Mode is canon:



    (Time stamp: 30m 24s)

    Sega defines what is canon, because they own the Sonic property. They dictate what does and doesn't count as part of the series' official lore.

    You can have your own preferred version in your head, where you can pick and choose as you please, but you can't have your own "canon", because "canon", by definition, is the official word on the matter.

    Some Star Wars fans ignore the prequels and the remasters, as they are free to do, but the prequels and remasters are still canon, because the owners of the series say so.

    But canon aside, if we're simply looking at the original stories, shoe-horning the entirety of Sonic Triple Trouble between the Death Egg crashing and Knuckles stealing the Chaos Emeralds at the start of Sonic 3 clearly isn't what the Sonic 3 development team intended, or what the Sonic Triple Trouble development team intended. That's your filter of interpretation.
     
  10. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    As soon as they can figure that out themselves. Sonic Rivals weren't canon until they were. I'm sure Shadow the Hedgehog is canon until it isn't, unless it's not already, which is entirely possible.

    Which has been a confusing mess with little rhyme or reason behind half the decisions. Like the Master Emerald not being connected to the Chaos Emeralds. So yeah, I'm preferential to my own interpretation of the canon.

    Ah yes, shoe-horning the entire two days into the few days between the crash and actually going there. However will I cope.

    I'm well aware it's not what Sonic Team intended. I'm sure going into the development, they were all like "how can we squeeze a Game Gear game into this?". The Sonic Triple Trouble team might have actually considered it, though, considering the plot is Robotnik is hiding from Sonic, as he was while rebuilding the Death Egg, Knuckles is treated as a stranger, despite being introduced by this point, etc. Neither of us created the game, so you can say it's not the intent as much as I can say it is: neither of us can. I wonder if one of the game's script writers is on Twitter...
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2022
  11. Pengi

    Pengi

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    That's irrelevant. Sega decides the canon, and Sega is free to change the canon as they please. Canon is determined by the owner of the work. Canon is "the official lore". Fans can embrace or reject whatever they like, but they don't get to decide what is or isn't part of the official lore.

    If Sega says "This is the official story" then it's the official story. A fan can like it or dislike it, embrace it or reject it, engage with it or not engage with it. But the fan cannot say that it isn't the official story. That's what canon is, the official story.

    Sonic Triple Trouble ends with Sonic freeing Knuckles from a cage in Eggman's base, them shaking hands and parting on good terms. There is no mention of Angel Island or the Death Egg anywhere in the Japanese manual or game.

    Sonic 3 begins with Sonic heading to Angel Island (for the first time) with 7 Chaos Emeralds and getting attacked by Knuckles, who has been tricked by Eggman into believing that Sonic is a villain.

    Your theory requires that the Death Egg crashes on Angel Island, Eggman tells Knuckles that Sonic is a villain, Eggman plots to repair the Death Egg and steal the Master Emerald, Eggman and Knuckles both leave Angel Island for some reason, Eggman gathers 6 Chaos Emeralds then loses 5 of them in an experiment, Knuckles harasses Sonic a few times, Knuckles loses to Sonic in a fight, Eggman imprisons Knuckles, Sonic collects the 6 Chaos Emeralds, Sonic fights Metal Sonic (who is back somehow), Sonic frees Knuckles, Sonic and Knuckles part on good terms. AND THEN. Eggman and Knuckles both return to Angel Island, Eggman begins repairing the Death Egg, Sonic and Tails fly over to Angel Island with 7 Chaos Emeralds, Knuckles attacks Sonic and steals the emeralds, believing him to be a villain and working alongside Eggman.

    It's incredibly shoehorned.

    Whatever Sonic Origins' Story Mode adds, you're free to call it an extra filter of interpretation, but it will be an official and canonical extra filter of interpretation, approved by someone who actually worked on Sonic 3. And probably a lot simpler than your unofficial and non-canonical extra filter of fan interpretation where Sonic Triple Trouble is a prequel to Sonic 3.
     
  12. pkderbar

    pkderbar

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    This reinforces the idea that the 8-bit Sonic titles exist in an alternate continuity from 16-bit.
     
  13. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Fine then. Unless SEGA have outright said it's canon, I will not take it as canon. So that's only Sonic 1, 2, 3K, Rivals and Rivals 2 considered canon now, thank you oh great gatekeeper for correcting me.

    Covered in both manuals, yes.

    Robotnik to rebuild parts of the Death Egg without alerting Knuckles, Knuckles to hunt for the villainous Sonic covered above.

    God forbid Robotnik managed to gather the Chaos Emeralds. He's never done it before this point, nor since, and then losing them due to an unexpected reaction.

    Assuming those games linked are canon, SEGA hasn't said recently so can't say either way.

    While piloting one of Robotnik's machines. If you're going to dismiss everything, at least cover everything.

    Metal Sonic Kai, covered in Chaotix... oh, wait, that game's not been confirmed canon... oh well, series ruined.

    Unknown how long nor who actually imprisoned Knuckles. Glad to see you completely ignoring Fang's presence in the game, as well as his presence in the area Knuckles is caged in, to prove a point.

    You can tell all that from a handshake? Not to mention Knuckles goes from trying to bomb Sonic and shooting missiles at him, basically intent to kill, to redirecting him around the island without actually harming him.

    The most aggressive he gets in Sonic the Hedgehog 3 before Sonic is getting alarmingly close to the Hidden Palace Zone* is throwing a bomb into a building after waiting for Sonic to reach the exit. Pretty friendly terms versus attempted murder, if you ask me. But alas, I suppose if they shared a handshake and don't have sheer hatred in their eyes for one another...

    *Probably going to need to add, yes, this includes pushing a boulder at Sonic in Lava Reef Zone, since the way he was going leads to the Hidden Palace Zone, so way too close for comfort.

    Or has had his army of robots repairing it for the entire time he was attempting to reclaim the Chaos Emeralds during Sonic Triple Trouble. Amazingly enough, things don't just stop happening because you can't see them happening.

    Which apparently people would be perfectly fine with, except for if the second time is Sonic the Hedgehog 3. Knuckles is apparently a moron who can be tricked time and time again, after all.

    Either it goes Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles then Sonic Triple Trouble, where Knuckles is completely willing to trust Robotnik and hop into one of his machines after electrocuting him, stealing the Master Emerald, and most of his robots harassing Knuckles and stealing the Master Emerald a second time, or the other way around where it's the same trickery, with Knuckles slowly getting wiser about Robotnik but not exactly gaining a reason to trust Sonic outright, but again, everyone is fine with Knuckles being a moron anyway, so...

    Wait, no, the Master Emerald wasn't stolen by the EggRobo and Mecha Sonic since Knuckles' story isn't canon any more, no Story Mode for him in Sonic Origins, sorry.

    And hey, if you don't think them part of the canon, despite SEGA not really saying one way or another, by all means don't consider them canon. It's not like they've used assets and aspects from them and other 'non-canon' games.

    Fun detail, the Piko-Piko Hammer first appeared in Sonic the Fighters, and Sonic Adventure references this with the Fighters Feather (Warrior Feather in English). Oh hey, Fang and Espio are also in this game, how odd...
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2022
  14. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Doesn't that reference kind of fall flat given the game was called Sonic Championship in Japan? :v
     
  15. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    That's the name of some of the US Cabinets, wasn't it? Sonic the Fighters was the Japanese name.
     
  16. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    You simply try too hard to grasp at straws to keep your headcanon running.
    You may have your issues, but that may ruin your Sonic fan experience.

    SEGA might confirm canon status on games as time goes by, but that's all we got for now.
    Why do you insist on butting heads with whoever disagrees with you or prefers a continuity that doesn't align with yours?

    Chill a little, enjoy how each one views the franchise and try to reach a middle ground. I think that's the best approach.
     
  17. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    I get irritated when people start acting like I've no right to my interpretation. I'm quite happy to accept I'm incorrect and adjust if an actually good point is made, or speculate on something I don't agree with, as I've done several times throughout the thread. It's when the other party is being haughty my hackles raise.

    I'm fine to leave people to their own interpretations, and often try to disengage. But being told I'm 'shoe-horning' something in, even after checking various aspects to see what works best, and I have outright said it requires a little bit of retconning and interpreting things slightly different than I'm sure was intended to try and preserve as much of all the plots as possible before in this thread, irritates the hell out of me.

    But rewriting it and having Knuckles be a complete moron? That's perfectly acceptable guys! :eng99:

    Speaking of chill, I should probably write up the game time lengths of each game me and raphael_fc talked about a few weeks back...
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2022
  18. pkderbar

    pkderbar

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    I could sort of see Triple Trouble fitting in between Launch Base and Mushroom Hill, given that the Death Egg is thwarted from lifting off and recesses into Lava Reef, presenting an opportunity to leave a gap in the story for a while. Especially since Knuckles is not as aggressive in the back half of the story and seems more concerned with keeping Sonic away from Hidden Palace.
     
  19. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    I once considered it, but the JP Manual states Knuckles is a stranger. Nothing about Angel Island or the Death Egg, as mentioned, which is why I believe it takes place just prior to Sonic the Hedgehog 3.
     
  20. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    I'm with you in this: you're not imposing Sonic Team to accept your work, you're just doing it for your own sake and share it with others but don't tell them yours is the real canon. You do say it makes more sense than the official canon and try to include every game because a single timeline is your preference, but that's not imposing or being delusional, it's just defending the hard work you've done to get the best possible outcome.

    I'd still keep the 8-bit games as an alternate timeline, but in this case I'd blame 90's Sega and not the missteps of later eras for having to do that separation.