Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.
This infuriates me beyond words. But at least they are sometimes asking if something might be neat.
Why do you feel that way?
Because that means SEGA more times than not cares little about canonicity and continuity? As long as it seems promising sales-wise.
Because as I've advised before, it shows a lack of interest. Story and continuity are the least important aspect, but they're still important: I use them as a baseline for things. If a company has zero concern for continuity, then I expect they have little concern of the series.
Even Super Mario has continuity, it's just loose, but ignoring continuity leads to issues like the Master Emerald no longer having any relation to the Chaos Emeralds, as one SEGA Executive told Ian Flynn I think a year ago?
There's the fabled Sonic Bible, but it may not have much in terms of continuity rules or so...
Only those who've seen it may confirm or deny, but even those can't speak about it.
Considering there were two different bibles at one point, one saying Mobius, the other saying Sonic was born on Christmas Island (Australia?), I'm pretty sure this bible will be thrown out as well: is this the Two Worlds bible?
Only two bibles? It looked like SoA was constantly recreating its Sonic lore, unable to make up its mind. They gave western Sonic at least three different origins.
Regardless, I think it's fairly obvious that SoA's Sonic bible(s) and lore were never taken seriously by SoJ, the devs or even most western adaptations. I'd argue not even SoA took it seriously.
Meanwhile, we had a fairly cohesive lore, barring the odd issues with aspects like the Chaos Emeralds to be fair, over in Japan. I wonder if there's a Japanese Sonic bible floating around explaining the Chaos Emerald thing, actually...
Either way, the actual creators had a stable lore, with a soft reboot in Sonic Adventure that didn't really affect much and otherwise did confirm the prior games as having occurred. Then 2006 happened.
Series bibles are generally fairly fluid and get updated and changed frequently. The bible that people have posted about before was probably revised numerous times over the years. This isn’t something specific to Sonic.
Sonic is a mascot and brand first and a story second. That’s been true since his conception. Sonic is my favorite character but the truth of the matter is that he was designed by committee to help SEGA outsell Nintendo. The brand as a whole has always and will always come first.
The biggest problem is that Sonic Team can’t seem to decide what exactly they want the current iteration of the franchise/character/setting to be. Is Sonic a realistic, story-heavy franchise? Does it take place in a Pixar movie type setting? Is Sonic a fourth wall breaking Saturday morning cartoon character in a simple, Mario-esque world? Or is he part of the resistance in an action heavy war torn setting? Does the story only matter as a means to connect the levels or is it important to the game as a whole? SEGA don’t know.
If I had a nickel for every time Amy got a SonicPict with a dead/incapable of returning character, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.
... Well, I suppose it's not thaaaat weird in the grand scheme of things, since there's been two Maria + Shadow pics, and a Chaos + Tikal pic, and a Sinbad (Secret Rings Knuckles) pic, but whatever.
Seeing new official art of old characters from before they've said their very permanent goodbyes will always feel strange, no matter how absolutely adorable it is.
Spoiler: big img
Maybe they're made with the idea that these scenes of Amy take place during said stories (in this case, Unleashed and Battle)? Dunno when in the story's sequence of events you'd be able to say they definitely happened there, but who knows. It's the best thing I've got.
Oh yes, the ones with goner characters are definitely flashbacks, hope I didn't imply they're still kicking.
Ah, that's just me reading things incorrectly. My mistake, lol
They said in January the theme this year was all the picks take place at some point during a game.
No, the other one where nuclear tests had been done: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiritimati
Very interesting topics today.
- Do you think Shadow does or does not regain his memories in the ending of Shadow the Hedgehog? And if he does *not*: Is Sonic Battle canon? And when would it take place?
- I think the point of Shadow the Hedgehog is he doesn't care anymore. It doesn't matter what his memories were or what his past was. He's moving on. He's forging his own identity. (...) But Sonic Battle is canon, and where that falls in the timeline is tbd, but it is being determined.
- As someone who likes the concept behind the two-worlds (despite many just writing it off despite how interesting it is), I find it interesting how now it's said to be human **settlements** on Sonic's world. By settlements, do you mean that some humans crossed over into the animal planet? Or is the two-worlds retconned? (that being be a retcon of a maybe retcon)
- It's an issue that has been very confusing for a long time. (...) But one-world is how it has always been! [smile wink nudge] And I chose the word 'settlements' specifically because what we have seen of the human ~settlements~ is very wide and varied. (here they discussed the correct pronunciation of 'Mazuri' in case you're interested). Anyway, 'settlements' was a word choice to be as broad as possible to describe all human habitation, but it's not that they came over from anywhere. It's that they live on Earth with Sonic and all the other animal people. It's just they're there.
[Did I get that right? Ian called the planet 'Earth'?]
- I remember from one of your previous podcasts, Sega said that the Zeti were native to Sonic's world. Does that mean the Zeti used to live on Sonic's world?
- Poor word choice on my part. Native to Sonic's world insofar as Lost Hex is native to Sonic's world. (...) From my understanding, Lost Hex is not extraterrestrial, the Zeti are not extraterrestrial. They're just a weird part of Sonic's world.
- In a previous podcast I heard that you stated that Chaotix is doubtful canon, does this mean that SEGA is changing its mind about that game that previously considered it non canon? You also stated that Sonic R is doubtful canon despite being canon fully canon some time ago. If so, the former SEGA Europe community manager Kevin Eva was right? The Sonic canon is always in flux?
- (...) Stuff that I was told to not touch in the past is now back on the table. It's not my place to say 'here's the fulll and extended list of what games are considered canon and their chronological order', as much fun as that would be to drop on the BumbleKast. (...) That stuff is under review and I'm hoping that things will settle out into something both cohesive and long term going forward.
I mean... what's there to determine? It's got to take place after Shadow the Hedgehog since Shadow is well aware of Maria, and before Sonic Advance 3 due to Gemerl. Sonic Advance 3 was the end of the Adventure Era, so said Iizuka, and Sonic Rush a new beginning, so...
See if it wasn't for that smile, wink, nudge, I'd feel like we're being gaslighted, but thank god it's over.
I need to show them my timelines!
Yeah I don't see any other place for them to place Battle. Unless if they manage to place Advance 3 somewhere after Rush or Rush Adventure, which would be weird to say the least.
If they were every going to do a show that wasn't its own thing it'd be interesting if they did it to where it was basically just new canon retellings of the games' stories
that actually made changes to follow their new timeline as close as possible. Maybe Sonic Rush's dialogue finally wouldn't be awful and out of character.
Could just be SOJ or whoever's doing this saying to Ian "These games are off limits for now while we figure out timeline stuff," and even though some of them are obvious, they just want to avoid creating any unnecessary confusion for people who follow this sort of thing.
Well, I did an entire Twitter thread about it, but most games do have a pretty easy placement. I'll avoid the portable games and include the portable games to avoid confusion, as well as the debatably canon stuff:
Sonic the Hedgehog (Mega Drive)
First Game, though not first fight between Sonic and Robotnik.
Sonic the Hedgehog CD
Been established to be here, always thought it since Tails is not a factor beyond easter eggs otherwise.
Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Mega Drive)
Introduction of Tails and the Death Egg
Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles
Introduction of Knuckles, Death Egg story continued from Sonic the Hedgehog 2, as mentioned in the JP manual.
Sonic, Tails and Knuckles all involved and on friendly terms, so post-Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles.
Sonic the Hedgehog 4
New designs in play, but if I recall correctly it was noted as before Sonic Adventure. Metal Sonic is recovered from Little Planet, suggesting this further due to Metal Sonic's appearance there. Has to be at least 11 months after Sonic the Hedgehog CD.
Manual and opening confirm Sonic has been travelling. Metal Sonic shows after Sonic the Hedgehog 4.
*Sonic Advance potential Placement**
Sonic Adventure 2
Newspaper mentions the attack on Station Square in Sonic Adventure.
*Sonic Advance potential Placement*
Sonic Advance 2
Introduction of Cream the Rabbit: Cream confirms this her first meeting with "Mr. Sonic", who is surprised by her politeness.
Cream the Rabbit evidences after Sonic Advance 2. Shadow the Hedgehog reintroduction and start of amnesia subplot.
Shadow the Hedgehog
Shadow the Hedgehog concludes amnesia subplot, remembers enough of the past to let it go.
Shadow the Hedgehog active, aware of Maria versus unable to even remember "who is the Maria?" Introduction and demise of Emerl.
Sonic Advance 3
G-Merl introduced, at the very least based on Emerl's data.
Sonic the Hedgehog (2006)
Introduction of Silver the Hedgehog. Blaze appears, introduced in Sonic Rush in 2004, but is debatably 'new' as shows only one debatable instance of recognition of Sonic, despite becoming allies with him at the end of said game. Game removes itself from time, events do not transpire.
Introduction of Blaze the Cat and Nega.
Sonic Rush Adventure
Blaze the Cat returns, recognises Sonic off the bat, same with Nega.
Reintroduction of Silver the Hedgehog, Nega continues attacks, and includes attacking Robotnik, who now actively works against his counterpart/descendant. Sonic and Knuckles unaware Nega is in play, only ever see him as Robotnik, possible chameleon arch effect.
Sonic Rivals 2
Silver and Nega return, Nega locked in alternative dimension, presumed dead.
Sonic and the Secret Rings
Sonic reacts to the name Ifrit, suggesting familiarity, while in Sonic Rivals 2, he has no reaction beyond confusion to what that is, implying those events took place prior to this.
Trivia Question includes Shadow the Hedgehog as an answer, introduction of what becomes Orbot, not quite there though, introduction of Miles Electric.
Sonic and the Black Knight
Sonic can offer to go on a date with Amy in Sonic Unleashed: this game opens with that event about to occur, but Sonic misses it due to being pulled into the world.
Return of Orbot, introduction of Cubot, Tails continues to use Miles Electric tablet. Introduction of Wisps.
Events of Sonic Colours creates or unleashes the Time Eater, Robotnik uses this for the events of this game.
Sonic Lost World
Wisps reappear in the game. Introduction of the Deadly Six, of whom include Zavok.
Zavok is an illusion from Infinite.
*Sonic Advance should come after Sonic Adventure, due to Amy's involvement as she laments the lack of action recently in that game, and before Sonic Advance 2 due to that being a sequel, but Sonic Advance 2 could be a prequel if willing to debate.
**Sonic Rivals subseries included due to reintroduction of Silver, as no other reintroduction story supplied to replace Sonic the Hedgehog (2006).
I can go back and add more, if you want, but otherwise what is 'canon' can easily be confirmed from the stuff in the game.
Separate names with a comma.