Cherrypicking, but I think this is quite disingenuous to Archie book and the fact that it kept those characters alive and developed them further. Like the Hooligans, Mighty and Ray's presence and characterisation in the Archie book pretty much codified how we know them today. Mighty in particular got a couple of really good showings between Chaotix Quest and his fight with Werehog Sonic in the Shattered World arc, both of which gave him substance, with the former in particular providing some great emotional payoff to Mighty's arc and some real pathos to that story in general. To say people like them for being obscure is extremely reductive.
If we're gonna have this conversation again, I'll quote my piece from a while back in the movie thread: Metal Sonic in CD has no special attributes that would make Eggman deciding to build other, bulkier mechanized Sonics in 2 and 3 seem like a backwards move. If anything, positioning Metal Sonic as "the first one" would help explain Eggman's fixation on that design in later games.
Hey, I always thought it was the first one: Spoiler Though I will suggest Metal Sonic is actually more advanced, but that's mostly headcanon (heh from recent news) that Metal Sonic was built in the Good Future, and Robotnik accidentally locked himself into the Bad Future before making any more, with the Mecha line him attempting to replicate Metal Sonic's design with present technology.
How about the fact you limit what you can do with the setting due to it having to adhere to what has already happened in modern? Or, as I mentioned before, how these past characters serve no purpose in Modern as it currently is and would thus never see the light of day? I just don't see WHY this split is an issue in any real practical sense. The most I can criticize is maybe not having Classic Chaotix in Classic but that's about it. What is gained by demonizing the Classic timeline? Its existence only adds to the series by providing an outlet for these elements to be played with in their own space. It isn't hurting anything. This isn't a dig on anyone who is a fan of the Archie comics but I wanna stress this point nonetheless, I implore not to take this the wrong way. Archie did a lot of things with the freedom it had and the medium it was in. That's all well and good especially for those who partook it it. But I think people have a tendency to overinflate their impact on the wider perception of the brand to the masses. This is the games we are talking about and in the games, the merit of their inclusion was the memes surrounding their obscurity. When Mania Adventures includes them, it isn't with an Archie reference or even a SegaSonic Arcade reference. Its with the Missing Since 1993 posters from Generations. That's Mighty And Ray lasting legacy in the games. Being characters that were forgotten as far as the masses are concerned. I hope I am not coming off as too harsh here.
They still have to: they can't shatter the Master Emerald, or they'll have to do Chaos' storyline. They also have to do anything that happened outside the Sonic and Robotnik conflict, like Erazer Djinn, unless the Arabian Nights disappear. What about Solaris, he's still a threat to timespace that can be invoked. Oh look, limits they have to adhere to still, because it was the same world until a certain point, no matter how we cut it. What exactly can they do that they don't have to adhere to regarding the modern canon? One has to ponder, if we go with the idea Robotnik has abandoned the original plans, what does that entail for Shadow? Is he locked on Prison Island until the Black Arms invade and free him? I'll happily admit, alternate timelines can hold a certain charm when handled right, but do we really trust Sammy SEGA to do that? Because it's nothing more than an excuse to limit themselves and will cause havoc the longer it exists. I don't particularly fancy arguing whether Sonic Crisis and Sonic Legacy are Timeline A or Timeline B games, based on the lack of mention of Chaos' assault on Station Square and Shadow being more of a loner than usual. It's not a problem now, but The Legend of Zelda fans thought that when Ocarina of Time came out as well, we'll see how long that lasts if the split remains.
Says who? If they really wanted to they can take the Classic verse into its own direction altogether and used "time shenanigans" as the argument for why things aren't the same. FlashPoint Paradox did this. Even if we didn't, it doesn't really matter. We don't need to Shatter the Master Emerald or go to ARK to explore new ideas that weren't already done in Modern but we do need the freedom to explore those ideas independently of what has happened in Modern to do so. If you say everything is in 1 timeline, the Classic verse basically cannot do anything that has any significant ramifications or its absence in modern will be a massive issue. This itself was one of the bigger problems with Sonic 4 as trying to cram it in there opened up so many cans of worms that caused confusion in the fandom. The CD placement debate itself more or less only exists because of Sonic 4, as prior few would debate it was before Sonic 2 based on official statements by devs. In its own timeline, Classic can introduce new concepts that are not present in Modern without worry that it has to make sense in Modern. It can introduce new abilities, new villains, new mguffins, etc. Classic Verse can get tails a new plane without it causing issues with Sonic Adventure's story arc for example. In a single timeline, it throws his arc off. You say its an excuse to "limit themselves" but how? Modern is not severed from what happened already in the Classics. There is just nothing to gain by comparison by adhering religiously to a single timeline. Modern has all the freedom to do what it wants with whatever elements it wants and now so does this new Classic timeline. Also as a fan of both Classic and modern aesthetics, I like that this allows us to use both going forward. Especially in the case of characters like Amy whose design actually changed significantly. Side note: it also simply does not even make sense from a plot standpoint that there is no split timeline, as Sonic does not remember the events of Generations prior to it happening. Generations was criminally underwritten but the one thing it had was Sonic and Classic Sonic's bond and Sonic teaching/inspiring him. That arc goes out the window without a split timeline to allow their individuality to be preserved. I'm personally not a fan of what Archie did by just making them forget it ever happened and undermining the events of the entire thing for no good reason.
@ChaddyFantome I don't think you're being disrespectful but I do vehemently disagree. The grouping of Fang, Bean and Bark together, with the latter two being villains? Wasn't a thing before the comics. Bam, showed up in Mania as a trio. Mighty and Ray's brotherly relationship? Again, not a thing until the comics, then shown in Mania Adventures. Even Mighty's strength was never explored in SegaSonic or Chaotix, with Vector being pitched as the strong guy in Chaotix's manual. While not everyone is aware of the comics or Mighty and Ray's part in them, they codified who these characters are now and continued to give them presence well after they had been shelved from the games. I think Ray in particular would never have gotten a second look without the comics, given he only appeared in one obscure arcade game in Japan. The novelty of these characters inclusion wasn't for the sake of their obscurity, but despite it. Fans remained passionate about them over the years, and I think their continued presence in the expanded media was a huge factor in that, and it was that passion that ended up seeing them return to the spotlight. Compare and contrast with Honey, who was only inducted into the comics at the tail end of the Archie book's lifespan and now has a moderate following and collection of fanart. Speaking hyperbolically, there was no Honey fandom prior to her introduction in the comics. She was just a curiosity from an old Sonic arcade game. I really don't think the effect of the comics can be understated in this regard.
Pretty sure that entire trio dynamic was itself just inspired by scrapped heroes team concept but I digress. For a lot of people, those 3 were seen as a trio in Fighters simply because Fighters was how people were collectively introduced to these 3 characters independent of their actual in game allegiance in that game. The term "Hooligans" itself I believe came from the Sonic heroes team concept iirc? I digress. I am not saying you cannot trace elements from how they are portrayed in Mania adventures back to Archie. What I am saying is most people don't see them as "Archie callbacks". Of course things like Ray's shoe color goes to Archie but most people don't actually know that. People don't look at mighty having strength as an Archie reference. They just hear the name "Mighty" and assume he must be strong. I know in my case I always believed Mighty had super strength independent of the comics until relatively recently purely off of his name. Essentially what I am saying is independent of what you can deduce are influences from Archie, those things aren't central to how the wide majority view the characters or their relevance/presence in the games in Mania and even Generations prior. Most people simply aren't/weren't reading Archie enough for that. As for your point about Honey, a lot of that came down to the fact she was a hidden/scrapped character in the code of the game to begin with. Honey herself is , I would argue" even more obscure than Mighty, who people tend to know as "the scrapped Sonic concept" (even though that's not quite the case). Its not really apples to apples. honey was less "obscure" prior to Archie and more "didn't even exist in practical terms". Also thank you for not taking anythign I say the wrong way.
And I hated it there as well. And how is that different to simply placing these adventures into the same timeline. What exactly in the Modern Timeline, beyond Sonic Forces the game it was made to tie into, prevents the Phantom Ruby from being a thing? What limits this exploration? Actually, it was debated quite a bit. Some placed it after Sonic the Hedgehog 2. Some after Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles. Ah yes, like the InstaShield that became a staple in the series. They can also introduce an element and remove it in the same game if need be, they do it all the time. Lightspeed Dash comes to mind. How? Boy was inventing submarines since Tails' Adventure. Just don't name it the Tornado, problem solved. Mighty, Ray, Bean, Fang, Bark, never going to see them in the modern titles, despite, as noted, their actual popularity you're happy to dismiss. Silver disagrees: he's changing his timeline repeatedly, and it's actually changing. We should probably note all instances of time travel and how they effect the world... Considering the plot of Sonic Generations was Sonic and Sonic restoring the timelines, we can say they only forgot in that instance as they hadn't gotten to that point to restore it. Boom, you get your character development, plothole resolved.
One of the things I don't like about the timeline split is keeping legacy characters restricted to certain eras. Characters like Vector and Charmy have been with the franchise since 91-92, and sadly their Classic designs are as of now permanently locked away since they're part of the Modern branch. It would be one thing if Sonic Team took more advantage of a split timeline, but like me and others have said they're not going to make radical changes that can contradict the modern storyline so what's the point?
This is precisely my issue. I’ve gone on and on about wanting Mighty, Ray and so on to show up in the main continuity of the IDW book, but god, I really do miss the Archie days where they were able to pull from anything and everything. Don’t get me wrong, I think it was the right call to tighten up the focus and not incorporate stuff from extended media, but Mighty and Ray were always game characters. I just miss my boys…especially Mighty’s late Archie look.
It wasn't inspired by that. That was a coincidence. Ian had no idea about the Sonic Heroes thing at the time, none of us did. I never saw anyone talking about them as a trio prior to them being teamed up in the Archie comics. Fans were more likely to have played Sonic Triple Trouble or Sonic Drift 2 than they were Sonic the Fighters, so Fang was better known. Bean and Bark often came up together in discussions because they were the two characters new to STF, and were in Fighters Megamix together. Fang wasn't part of that. It didn't. Those characters were off-limits to the modern games long before Sonic Mania. Or rather, Sonic Team showed no interest in reviving them. They didn't fit their vision of the modern Sonic series, especially as the games became increasingly "Sonic only". They weren't going to bother redesigning and voice casting Mighty just to show up as an NPC in Sonic Unleashed. Classic Vector/Charmy/Espio were as "sealed" as Ray and Mighty were, during the modern era, so this isn't really a change. It's a shame that they're still sealed, since they're as much a part of that era of Sonic as Mighty or Fang. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll see them incorporated into the current Classic Sonic brand unless they appear in a "Sonic Mania 2" or Chaotix 32X is included in a "Sonic Origins Volume 2".
As a long time fan of the Master System and Game Gear games, I would like to say: Spoiler We're canon now, boys. Also, screw Sonic Forces' depiction of South Island.
Does it bug anyone else how the level order makes zero sense when considering the geographical locations of the zones on the map?
It does, but I see it more like those old maps where things clearly aren't to scale or proper location, but merely represent the land in general.
Say, did they ever explain what Knuckles was doing with the Master Emerald in Sonic Mania Adventures ep3? Was he moving it to the outdoor altar or something? I mean, the early Sonic 2 map was consistent with the South Island from S1SMS too. Pretty sure this was always intended to be the canon layout. The S1SMS devs probably got it from Sonic Team.
Or maybe they'll post new art of Classic Espio on Twitter and I'll look like an IDIOT. https://twitter.com/SonicOfficialJP/status/1516914725832978433
I want to make it clear real quick that Christian Whitehead said in his Sonic Revolution panel that he was not a fan of Ray the Flying Squirrel before working on Mania+. The Mania team basically asked SEGA if they could use Mighty and SEGA said you have to include Ray with him because they are a duo. Working on Mania did make Whitehead appreciate the character a lot more in the end. Now as for Bark, Bean and Fang. Ian Flynn did not know they were ever going to be a trio in Heroes while working on Archie. Flynn also stated when he tried to use the Hooligans name in the IDW comics he got into trouble. So for now the team name is Archie exclusive even though it is used in the Encyclo-Speed-Ia. It's an odd situation.
Its not about Modern. Its about Classic. Classic is limited by insisting it must be tied to 1 timeline. ...I'm not talking about minor moves here. I'm talking substantial additions. The Hard Boiled Heavies aren't gonna see use in Modern in a 1 timeline scenario. They are basically just the Classic E-100s. I'm not gonna get into the canonicity of Tails adventure right now. The point is it isn't just about being called the Tornado or not. Tails was working on a new plane to outpace Sonic's tornado in SA1. You have to insist then he never makes a plane as good as the Tornado for all of the classic series by this logic. Me pointing out how devs themselves said they were sealed characters that weren't gonna see use has nothing to do with my personal opinions of the characters.... The devs said so and I don't blame them because I see very little point to including them in Modern. This is not even close to the same thing... Silver comes from the future, not the past. Silver going back in time doesn't affect his past self because he isn't interacting with a past version of himself. Silver is for whatever reason unaffected by changes in his own time. That is not the same as Sonic teaching himself how to do things in an adventure he had with his future self he somehow doesn't remember. I actually heavily disagree. Fighters was known via Gems by most people, or if not they learned it second hand because of Smash bros Sonic's move set heavily referencing it. At least in my own experience, most people that even knew about Triple Trouble did via Gems collection along with Fighters and in that case, there isn't enough of a seperation.
Want to clear this up because I’ve seen it a few times now: Fang, Bean and Bark were never planned to be in Sonic Heroes, either separately or as a team. The only cut characters we’ve ever been told about are a team consisting of Mighty, Ray and Metal Sonic. Team Hooligan was always purely a comics creation. I’m a big smelly idiot and Big is the superior Sonic cat.
