The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

Where do you stand on the split timeline?

  1. Makes sense

    30 vote(s)
    18.4%
  2. I hate it

    63 vote(s)
    38.7%
  3. It's alternate dimensions, not split timelines

    19 vote(s)
    11.7%
  4. Doesn't matter either way

    51 vote(s)
    31.3%
  1. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    So Sega told them to use the Phantom Ruby but didn't tell them what exactly the Phantom Ruby does. What a shocking surprise.
     
  2. Levi Church

    Levi Church

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    That video has a pretty cool thumbnail and editing, I wonder who made it.
     
  3. Forte

    Forte

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    Nobody really understands how this thing works, even today. I wonder if the "Valtron" incarnation was more understandable...
     
  4. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    So we have some intriguing questions from Ian's Q&A:


    1:41:27
    - @BumbleKing Videos Doesn’t the Phantom Ruby also have spacetime powers as well? In Mania it takes Sonic to Little Planet’s past which was actually physically there. All gems seem to have that capacity
    - Maybe or was that just the Phantom Ruby's illusion? What is real and what isn't in Mania is a bit of a tangled knot that I should sit down and try to figure it out at some point but, I mean, if it doesn't make a lot of sense then just gotta say "Phantom Ruby" and hand wave.



    I remember I asked Ian if Mania was all an illusion, and he answered he hopes not. I guess the canon interpretation is "some part of Mania is real, some part is illusion".


    1:54:09
    - What do u think of Emerls race being made by Shades Clan? I ❤ elements of all Echidna history. Would u want to see Archies / Chronicles history added into future games? What would u want from both?
    - As much as I enjoy Shade, I'm kinda fine with Chronicles being non-canon now, for a variety of reasons, but... like, one of the things that bothered me so much about the Nocturnus Clan is they're supposed to be contemporaries with the Knuckles Clan... and they're so far advanced. It's like... how does that relate to the rest of the world? Was everyone else kind of stone age tech and they're like bleeding edge 22nd century stuff? That doesn't quite gel with me. It's, I don't know, linking the gizoids with the Nocturnus Clan was a fine enough idea but now I'm also kind of glad that idea is out the window and it can be explored in a different avenue.



    I'm not sure I agree with this, but the important thing is Chronicles is said to be non-canon again.


    1:57:57
    - @BumbleKing Videos Hello Mr. Flynn! As someone who sees the potential in the concept of the two worlds, what do you mean when you say human settlements sometimes? Is it still two worlds?
    - I have been asked not to go into that right now. Stay tuned. There will be answers forthcoming.



    Weird, huh? Could it be that Frontiers is going to talk about that?


    2:07:08
    - You mentioned Sonic 4 being maybe non-canon. How could that be when it is the only time Metal Sonic is saved from Little Planet? All appearances before that indicate that they are separate models, which is backed up by Mania's Stardust Speedway boss battle where alternate destroyed models are on display.
    - I don't know, man. I can't pave over every plothole that's put in front of me, you know.



    I don't remember Ian saying Sonic 4 is maybe non-canon. In the very first question of the BumbleKast for February 23rd, 2022, he was asked if the events of Sonic 4 were canon to IDW, because we never knew what happened to Little Planet after the end of the game. And he answered (from my understanding) that he wasn't sure this was still canon. Not the game itself, but Little Planet being stuck on the Death Egg. But now the question said he told Sonic 4 is maybe non-canon and he didn't correct it. I'm confused.

     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2022
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  5. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Honestly, I agree with the idea it's "Power of the Mind", though in a more literal "It's a Mind Stone" sense and it's basically a psychic stone that casts illusions and uses telekinesis.

    Evidence to this effect is the Knuckles cutscene in Sonic Mania showing the Hard Boiled Heavies as Eggrobos after the Sonic cutscene, as I've mentioned before.

    This shows the Phantom Ruby seems to only overlay onto things, and does not actually warp characters around, since otherwise said Eggrobos would be in Green Hill Zone and thus unable to interact with Knuckles in the first place. Hence my belief the game, from that opening through to the start of Hydrocity, is an illusion. It does, however, show an ability to pick characters up and float, suggesting telekinesis.

    My reason for thinking it's telekinesis is due to Infinite's fight with Silver: the abilities seem to match other than colour.

    It also seems to be able to create Phantoms that operate independently of the original, as seen with Shadow. The Zavok Phantom seems to be intelligent, but Shadow seems to be silent. Something to look into one day. Either way, these Phantoms overlain onto Reality are what I believe the Hard Boiled Heavies to be and are probably only being perceived by anyone caught in the Ruby's power. If Amy happened on Sonic, for instance, fighting the Heavy Magician, then she'd see him fighting and being knocked back by thin air.

    Basically, the Phantom Ruby affects perception, the mind processing the world, and uses telekinesis to augment said perception alteration. But that's just me.
     
  6. Pengi

    Pengi

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    They're at Never Lake in Sonic Mania's ending and Little Planet is treated as the real deal.

    In Sonic CD the time travel seems to only affect Little Planet and not the rest of the universe around it. When Sonic arrives at Never Lake he sees a mechanised Little Planet, which would surely be the Bad Future, even though it's the present day at Never Lake. It's the same in Sonic 4: Episode Metal, where Metal Sonic is in Stardust Speedway's bad future, but it's the present on Sonic's world.

    The Heavies appear in the 30th Anniversary comic. Amy's in the battle with Heavy King. The Phantom Ruby is long gone. Sonic Team gives the IDW team notes if they break any of the rules of the universe, so the Heavies' transformation must have been real and permanent.
     
  7. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    They also have Metal Sonic perking up at the Metallic Overlord line, indicating this is where he gets the idea for Sonic Heroes, despite the game being an alternate timeline now. It also uses Fang, Bark and Bean, meaning Sonic the Fighters is canonical, unless you want go into that whole issue again.

    It's a comic, they have a different ruleset. Looking at you, Sonic's World doesn't have money despite this being Vector's motivation in the games...
     
  8. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    Well, Bark and Bean in StF are not bad guys. They're just Sonic's friends.
     
  9. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Is there anything canonically story-wise about them? I know there's a canonical story of Sonic going to Knuckles for the Chaos Emerald and Knuckles picking a fight, but nothing much more than that. I know there's other details, like Bean having woodpecker inspiration, but I don't know if they have any story elements confirming them allies or antagonists.

    'cause Fang is also in that game, so appearing in it doesn't mean friend.
     
  10. Pengi

    Pengi

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    They're not allowed to contradict the current vision of the games. Sonic Team didn't view the continued existence of the Hard-Boiled Heavies, post Sonic Mania, as a contradiction.
     
  11. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member

    Fang is still a bad guy because he's said to have stolen one of the Chaos Emeralds. I don't know from whom. Maybe it's Honey the Cat?
    Bark and Bean are said to be just Sonic's friends, nothing else.

    "Sonic's friends, who spread throughout the world, were guarding the Chaos Emeralds separately so that they are not misused by Eggman (one of them ended up being stolen by Fang in the meantime, however...)"
    http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the_Fighters
     
  12. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

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    Sorry, I only realized you uploaded the video after I posted it and didn't have a chance to amend. Thanks for uploading it!
     
  13. shilz

    shilz

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    This one is weird and I think is Flynn kind of misunderstanding what the Nocturnus were 4000~ years ago. In the cutscene where IX explains their true origin, he ends with "We had to change and adapt and become who we are today. we had to become perfect!" The city of Nocturne itself is shown to have been heavily reformed by technology by them within the cage. before, it looked more like a traditional ancient city in its heyday. So we can assume they had just enough technology to make the prototype Gizoids, including Emerl, get thrown into the Twilight Cage via the Argus Event for it, and to get a headstart on cracking the technology of the other species in the Twilight Cage, all of which contributed in some way to their abilities. Teleportation, leech blades, energy blasts, and they of course enslaved the Kron to manufacture this stuff.

    They did not have this technology at the same time as the Argus Event. They advanced in these ways to claw themselves out of the hole they were thrown into. There's still a lot of their history that's left up to interpretation, but their technology isn't. It came from somewhere tangible. Ironically, more explaination and backstory than most new concepts in a Sonic game get.

    This one just makes me feel sad for this man.
     
  14. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    So Sonic R and Sonic the Fighters are canon, good to know.

    That's fair. It's from a magazine, but I guess it's the only concrete canon we'll get of that game now, unless the X-Box Live Arcade added anything.

    Man I'd love that job.
     
  15. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member

    I thought only 1 day had passed inside the Twilight Cage? Sorry I know nearly nothing of the lore of this game.
     
  16. Levi Church

    Levi Church

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    Yeah SEGA actually told Flynn that R was canon while he was working on Sonic: Mega Drive, so it's been canon for awhile.

    I actually took from photos of the XBOX Live Arcade awhile ago for Sonic 1, 2, 3, K, CD and Fighters. Not sure if these links will work but here they are.
    1 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/396517638408503307/927696515751886868/IMG_20220103_150554.jpg
    CD https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/396517638408503307/927696515537989682/IMG_20220103_151016.jpg
    2 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/396517638408503307/927696516452331561/IMG_20220103_150651.jpg
    3 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/396517638408503307/927696515982590012/IMG_20220103_150807.jpg
    & K https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/396517638408503307/927696515156291594/IMG_20220103_151105.jpg
    Fighters https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/396517638408503307/927696514812346368/IMG_20220103_151237.jpg
     
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  17. shilz

    shilz

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    This isn't about how long Team Sonic spent in the Twilight Cage, which I think you're confusing this with. It's about how long it was for the Echidnas while they were there, and what they did in that timeframe. It would have to be much longer for them than a day.
     
  18. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    I was referring to the echidnas. I thought they spent only 1 day in the Twilight Cage and that corresponded to thousands of years on Earth (?). But I guess you're right, maybe I'm confusing with Team Sonic.
     
  19. shilz

    shilz

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    If they did, either Team Sonic undid all their damage within an hour, or Eggman found the secret to immortality before they get back.
     
  20. Pengi

    Pengi

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    If the Nocturnus were able to create Emerl before they were teleported away, then they were already an incredibly advanced civilisation and shouldn't have had any trouble defeating Pachacamac's Knuckles tribe.

    The tie-in with Sonic Battle didn't make much sense. Emerl was designed to be compatible with the Chaos Emeralds, but the Nocturnus wouldn't have had access to them during Pachacamac's era, since they were guarded by Chaos. And according the Japanese Sonic Adventure strategy guides, Pachacamac's era was 3000 years ago, whereas Sonic Battle says the Gizoid (a singular robot) was created 4000 years ago.

    It was a messy retcon.