The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

Where do you stand on the split timeline?

  1. Makes sense

    26 vote(s)
    20.3%
  2. I hate it

    44 vote(s)
    34.4%
  3. It's alternate dimensions, not split timelines

    18 vote(s)
    14.1%
  4. Doesn't matter either way

    40 vote(s)
    31.3%
  1. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    Unless you consider that easter egg in City Escape.
    [​IMG]

    And it's interesting because it says "since 1993", but Mighty was in Knuckles Chaotix which is from 1995. Well Knuckles Chaotix doesn't exist in modern timeline because of Charmy Bee's amnesia, but SegaSonic could have happened with no problem. And thus the 1993 thing makes sense.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
  2. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Mighty implicitly does not exist by Iizuka's own admission but there's absolutely no reason he can't exist in the Modern setting. It would be completely reasonable for him to be living his own life off-screen. The comic shows that characters like Gemerl are still around in this setting despite the fact he hasn't been used since his debut game.
     
  3. RDNexus

    RDNexus

    Member
    Most likely an excuse so that fans stopped crying for Mighty (and others) to appear in the Modern Continuity.
     
  4. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    My name's Martin Member
    I can tell you people probably liked Mighty and Ray partly because they were characters from an obscure game that weren't reused until Mighty appeared in Chaotix, which became quite an obscure game too, and, in my case, he was a bit less appealing after doing so. Another important part was Mighty looked a lot like a "Sonic 1 character", so to speak, feeling on point. The design retouches made for Chaotix and the blandness of that game are probably my reasons for not liking it as much as before back then.

    But, if I tell you the real reason I think is responsible of many of us liking it since they one, I'd tell you it's the blackness under his carapace from where all of his other body parts pop out. He honestly feels more like a ninja than Espio thanks to the shadow surrounding him (pun not intended). Oh, and he seems like a really nice guy in that SegaSonic title screen.
     
  5. LockOnTommy11

    LockOnTommy11

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    I’ve wanted to reply in this topic for ages but I just couldn’t muster up the energy to combat Sonic Team’s crap until now.

    Iizuka just spews whatever he wants, and half of the stuff he says is contradictory or just clearly flat out wrong. I’d prefer that he kept it quiet about the continuity or placement of games until he or the team have something of substance to say. It is clear and well established that all of the main title games are sequels to the last. It’s also clear that the writers of the stories incorporate detailed elements of time travel in to the stories. I don’t know how involved Iizuka is in writing these but either way he clearly misunderstands the concepts, and Sonic Team also don’t really seem to fully understand how to use the term ‘dimension’.

    Classic and Modern Sonic is a recent split both for the games themselves as well as the in-game continuity. Make no mistake, Sonic Adventure is a sequel to the earlier titles. I detailed how the current timeline elements play out logically in my recent timeline chart, with the only unusual game being Knuckles Chaotix which could fit in a few places but does cause some minor issues.

    You just can’t force an audience to ignore media and knowledge that not only have they been aware of for 20+ years, have played an active part in shaping. It’s even worse than film, because you actually pay (often full) price to play these games and take part in the section that happens on screen.
     
  6. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Knuckles Chaotix takes place several months after Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles. I should know, I'm working on a timeline that's determining every game in the Sonic Game series with a story into a single continuity, it mentions the gap in the Japanese manual. One of the games actually surprised me in its placement, actually.
     
  7. LockOnTommy11

    LockOnTommy11

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    Where did you get this from? I’ve never heard it before so would be keen to find out. Is it in the manual or something?
     
  8. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Yeah, Japanese manual:
    http://info.sonicretro.org/Chaotix/Manuals#Translated_from_Japanese_manual
    Only one accident I know of prior to that that put Angel Island on the ocean.
     
  9. LockOnTommy11

    LockOnTommy11

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    Alright, thanks! My placement of Knuckles Chaotix was correct then. After S3&K but before Mania.

    It still leaves issues in the timeline due to all the time travel, though I really don’t think the writers tend to account for it as it’s really a side game in the vein of Sonic Advance where the game happens but doesn’t really impact the overall progression of the main titles.

    Mania did reference it in the Metal Sonic boss fight a few times: there are two Metal Sonic’s in the background powering Metal Sonic and then he transforms to the Chaotix style big boss too. Plus y’know, Mighty’s in the game.

    I’d really love them to release Knuckles Chaotix again. I’ve never played more than 10 minutes of it and would love to give it a proper go now.
     
  10. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    It's fun when you get the hang of the mechanics. I like to grab my partner and run into enemies with them, makes me think of the boost-formula games when I do that.
     
  11. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

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    Knuckles' Chaotix is... OK. It's a fun little distraction and has a ton of good ideas, but it's far too short and doesn't really capitalize on what it has going for it. I'm hoping that if Sega ever decides to properly* rerelease it they at least make the level design more interesting and crank up the difficulty a bit.

    *by properly I mean like a Retro Engine remaster, not a crappy emulated version an obscure channel that no one used and became defunct after three or four years.
     
  12. Pengi

    Pengi

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    That's a big assumption. According to the Introduction Manual, Sonic Mania takes place "Some time after saving Angel Island". Why are you assuming that "several months" is is shorter than "some time"? They're both vague descriptors that only exist to tell us what the previous adventure was. The Mania Introduction Manual also says "Following the defeat of Dr. Eggman's previous scheme, Knuckles considers Sonic an ally." Christian Whitehead said that his original story idea was Eggman being depressed after his defeat in Sonic 3 & Knuckles. This all implies that Sonic 3 & Knuckles was considered to be the most recent adventure. The scene of Eggman contacting Metal Sonic on Little Planet also implies that he's been stuck there since Sonic CD.

    You can make an argument for Mania taking place after Chaotix, but there's not enough evidence to say that is definitive and correct.
     
  13. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    I still support 1 -> CD -> 2 -> 3K -> M -> KC -> 3DB -> R
     
  14. LockOnTommy11

    LockOnTommy11

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    I mean, it’s not really that big of an assumption, there’s at least some evidence to support this.

    *The two Metal Sonics in the background, and the fact that the current Metal Sonic transforms in to a sleeker version of the one from KC.
    *Knuckles Chaotix being a 32X game, when Sonic Mania specifically went for being a ‘what if’ game if Sonic had ever had a proper sequel on the SEGA Saturn, SEGA’s console after the MD/32X.

    ‘Some time’ and a ‘few months’ are both vague and left as such to avoid contradiction with other material. ‘Previous scheme’ doesn’t immediately imply it was the very last scheme either.

    The original idea may have been to have made Robotnik depressed after S3&K but there’s no mention of this in any of the manuals whatsoever either, seemingly making it a scrapped idea.
     
  15. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Random lore tidbit: the Modern Era apparently takes place years after the Adventure Era.
    [​IMG]
    Shadow took a test to join G.U.N. "years ago", and considering Shadow the Hedgehog was released 2005 and Sonic the Hedgehog was released 2006, it can't be a meta reference.
     
  16. SuperSnoopy

    SuperSnoopy

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    Wasn't 06 supposed to be a reboot? I don't remember any reference to the Adventure games in it actually.
     
  17. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    There's a minor one in regards to the Chao in Space series: Crisis City has billboards for the third one. Also Sonic Adventure 2's crates return.

    Otherwise themes do carry over from the Adventure titles, such as Shadow rejecting Mephiles when he tries to pull a Black Doom. I think the term Soft Reboot would be more apt: it's not acknowledging the prior continuity, but it does still exist.

    (Except for that damn blue Chaos Emerald.)
     
  18. Pengi

    Pengi

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    Not enough to say "my theory is proven correct". There's a big jump from "there's some evidence to support my theory" to "my theory is proven correct".

    The arms are thinner, but beyond that it's no sleeker. In the real world the blue Giga Metal is a reference to Chaotix, but within the story there's no reason the blue version couldn't exist before the red version.

    That's how the language is usually used. Steven Spielberg's previous film. Daft Punk's previous album. The previous issue of Superman. The USA's previous President. In all those sentences, the reader is to assume the one immediately prior. "Dr. Eggman's previous scheme" implies the one immediately prior. If it had said "one of Dr. Eggman's previous schemes" or "a previous scheme of Dr. Eggman", that would be different.

    There's enough wiggle room to argue that it's not 100% definitive, but it's better to go with the spirit and most likely intention of what was written, rather than try to find a loophole to suit a personal preference.

    It's absolutely a scrapped idea. But it's relevant because it shows that they started from a place of "the next adventure after Sonic 3 & Knuckles". There's nothing in the Introduction Manual, the digital manual, the website or the Art of Sonic Mania booklet to suggest that they switched from "the next adventure after S3&K" to "the next adventure after Chaotix".
     
  19. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    While I enjoy a good lore debate, it'd probably be less hassle for all involved if we simply note that Mania and Chaotix could exist before the other comfortably.

    Mania before Chaotix could be seen as Robotnik building up to those events: Giga Metal Sonic could be a precursor to Giga Metal Sonic Kai, and the device he traps Mighty and Ray in a prototype version of the ones found in Chaotix.

    Chaotix before Mania could be seen as Robotnik making use of those events: Giga Metal Sonic could be the remnants of the Chaos Rings' power boosted by the Phantom Ruby, causing him to take a similar form, and the device he traps Mighty and Ray in could be a simpler design of the Chaotix ones since this only needs to transport them, not freeze them.

    Either way works, so it's all down to preference.

    (Note: I don't think the Phantom Ruby actually changes Metal Sonic, it's all that illusionary ability that is established to be its power, but let's not get into a debate on what exactly the Phantom Ruby is capable of...)
     
  20. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Actually yeah let's get on that because even that's inconsistent between Mania and Forces, two games releasing in the same year. Mania seems to go with the idea that the Phantom Ruby is a reality warping artefact given it's responsible for a lot of Sonic and co's travel between Zones. Not only that, but its ability to bring Classic Sonic into Forces must be reality warping of some kind. Whether we go by the idea of Classic being from the past or another dimension, illusions wouldn't be able to achieve this. As such it stands to reason that Giga Metal is a genuine transformation achieved via the Ruby's Powers rather than a simple facade.

    All of which is to say whoever's responsible for the overarching writing of the series (probably Iizuka) doesn't have a handle on things if the writing can't keep consistent for even half a year.