The Sonic the Hedgehog 4 Megathread

This preview is interesting. They say the game doesn't feel right. I wonder if there'll be more similar reactions from the press once the have some proper time with at release.

The other thing to think about is that SEGA is aware of just how much this game isn't cutting the mustard with the fans. Will we be seeing big improvments in future episodes? I really doubt it. But there's future titles... maybe.

 

The idea that Sega can't tweak the physics without having to spend hours on level design intrigues me a bit. Perfect Sonic the Hedgehog physics isn't an easy task but if can be done twenty years ago it surely can be done now.

I'm not a technical whizz-kid like some of the members here but for the changes that have been proposed (no sticking on walls, no uncurling after going up half pipes, removing speed boosters) I can't see how the level design would need to be changed significantly. If it's implemented properly I'd have thought the spindash could solve any ramp issues that removing speed boosters could create, and the level design doesn't even need to be altered with the other two. If there are sections that NEED speed boosters then they're quite frankly designed badly anyway. Sonic 2 had speed boosters in Chemical Plant Zone, but they weren't needed (I'm under the impression that they exist solely to demonstrate how "fast" the Mega Drive was compared to the Super Nintendo). They weren't really needed then, they aren't really needed now.

If delaying a game once doesn't fix the glaring problems, delay it again. Delay if for as long as it takes until there is a quality, finished product ready for release. Nobody benefits from a game that "could have been better", and there's heaps of areas where this game could be better.

And that's just so it hits the bar set sixteen years ago.


Oh and as far as community feedback goes - you will indeed find many many forums that will enjoy this game. I'm still a bit of an outsider to this community but I can tell you it knows what it's talking about 90% of the time. There are of course people who will never be happy, but the mass majority have some understanding of what a good Sonic game should play like. A lot of them have had their hand in making some.

With other forums you honestly will get people who like the game just on the basis that Sonic is in it. Nothing more. These people may look as if they know what they're talking about, but are in actuality completely clueless. Here, people have chopped up the games to bits to see how they work. Some people here have worked within the video game industry, some even on Sonic games. It's in a different league entirely, and that's not just pink title bias coming through there.

Though it really depends who you're looking for. Because lots of people also haven't played the original games and are therefore comparing it to titles that had a completely different goal.

 

RubyEclipse, on the issue of "fun": Why exactly should I buy Sonic 4? The main thing going for it right now is "fun factor", but therein lies the problem. I can buy lots of games right now that are plenty fun. Why is Sonic 4 different? The advertising claim was that it was basically a sequel to the previous 3.5 games, but it doesn't match up.

- The level design is different
- The art style is different
- The music is different
- The physics are different
- The overall gameplay is different

I can't see a lot of similarities between Sonic 4 and classic Sonic games (except the copy - paste elements: bosses, special stages, badniks, etc), so why do I need to buy this? Brand name recognition? What?

I'm not going to buy the game if the only thing great about it is that its fun. I want more, and as a customer, I demand more.

 

Ruby Eclipse seems to be making a compelling case that this is a good, fun Sonic game. However, I don't think he's actually made any points about the assertional that it's a good SEQUEL to the Genesis games. This really is the biggest problem. SEGA promised us a retro sequel to Sonic 3 and has clearly failed to deliver, something that Ruby has basically admitted with his explanation of why they flat out REFUSE to fix the physics. They are fully aware that the physics are so different that it would take a whole re-design of the game just to accommodate those changes. I ask again, why in the blue hell didn't they model this game after the game it's supposedly a sequel to in the first place?

Then of course there's the music. I'm glad to hear that our bitching has been able to push some "small changes" in it. Hopefully those small changes are that horrible synth that Jun used for the main tune, sound like "space phaser" or something. But again, why didn't he do it right in the first place? His excuse in a recent interview was that he tried to find a Genesis dev kid but couldn't get his hands on the right type of computer. Has the man heard of Google? Even if SEGA couldn't be bothered to buy or borrow a Teradrive, he could have easily used one of the many fan made Genesis trackers.

Then of course there's the PR aspect. I believe that RubyEclipse believes that SEGA is listening and they care about our feedback. And maybe they do to some extent. But it really seems like their main goal isn't so much to do Sonic 4 the right way (which is flat out off the table with aforementioned physics decision), but rather comfort us and convince that it is.

All the excuses why this isn't Sonic 4 won't change the fact that THIS ISN'T SONIC 4. Ruby and Jun have all but flat out admitted this.

I really think it all boils down to something very simple. Do it right, or don't do it at all. If you continue on this path SEGA, Sonic 4 will be just like Sonic 2006: A game with great potential that got ruined by being rushed out the door to meet a deadline. Ruby Eclipse KNOWS how classic gameplay feels, but they won't do it to meet the deadline. Jun KNOWS what clasic music sounds like, but he won't go the extra mile to get the right instruments. And that's a god damn shame.

 

Frankly I'm satisfied with the music. That Jun made the excuse about not having the perfect tools when they were apparently available still doesn't invalidate the quality of the tunes. They're fun, bouncy, and retro by themselves, let alone compared to the music we've been used to. That their quality could be amplified by the use of more Genesis-style instruments is interest and worth exploring, if nothing else. And that's got nothing to do with retooling the physics either, so go for it.

However, I'm otherwise in partial agreement with your argument, Mad Echidna. I'd rather the game be delayed to surgically address these problems and test them to see that they work properly and deliver not only a fun game, but a fun retro Sonic game that shines as a masterpiece continuing from a masterpiece. I'd like that.

I did say partial agreement, though, which means I'm still wary about forcing Ruby into a very uncomfortable situation negotiating deadline extensions and getting into the messy business of marketing and financial projections. If he's into the stuff and feels more than confident about it, though, or he has help, then more power to him. In the mean time let's be as constructive and understanding as we can be for the time being. We may have to compromise to some degree with Episode 1 as it stands right now.

I suppose it could be argued otherwise, but I'm not inclined to, so no need to tell me twice. Actually, hasn't it already been preemptively upstaged by Sonic Colours? Ah, nevermind.

Which is why I made an entire post on why it's a better focus than retooling the entire game. Of course it's not a general physics issue. It's a specific mechanic with subtle significant implications. I even gave two different solutions to the problem, one of which involves implementing the insta-shield.

Hm. Considering that LLZ Act 2 was completely retooled, I question how much work it would take to adjust certain physics interactions in other zones:

Exactly. The nice thing about speed boosters there, though, was that it was not only new, but specific to that stage. You never saw those same speed boosters in Hill Top, Aquatic Ruin, etc. Wing Fortress Zone had those "boost carts", but those were designed differently than your standard (abused) boost ramps.

I'd put some more weight to Damizean's view of the problem as well. This begs a few more questions, Ruby: how challenging was it to the team to retool a single act? How long did it take? And would it take much longer or be more challenging than cutting down on bumpers or removing the boost ramps in Splash Hill Zone?

 

Depends on the delay. That preview's still running on the same demo we got back at E3.

 

True, but it's worth noting that it's the same preview that's been getting generally positive reviews as of late. I just thought it interesting to find one that echoes the sentiments of most of Retro's members towards the game while most of the mainstream gaming community just think it looks anywhere from good to awesome*.

*Not counting the few internet commenters and celebrities who hate that it looks like nothing new or that hate Sonic in general

EDIT: Speaking about music for a moment, any chance Jun will redo the final boss music? It's a little underwhelming to put it mildly. That and the regular boss tune. And the baby lullaby Special Stage.

 

I think a major "make or brake" moment for this game will be the press reaction. I'll use SU as an example, a lot of journos were quite positive about it, until it came to the actual review, then it had the shit ripped from it's bowels. Did it effect sales? Well if in every magazine it says the game is bad, are you going to part with cash for it? Obviously a lot of people here did but the press reaction ensured that there is no werehog in colours. If the press say the physics are shit then they will be fixed.

 

Yeahp. That actually could totally happen. The ol' tables-have-turned switcharoo in actual full-game impressions versus demo impressions. Something to think about.

 

Something just clicked in my head, are you guys actually basing assumptions about this game on magazine previews? Those are ALWAYS positive, they're basically commercials! Have you ever seen anyone trash a game in a preview? At worst they might say "we'll have to see how it looks at launch" or something.

 

I'd be very happy if they fixed the slope issue and also the jumping issue, so you don't instantly lose all momentum. Surely that cannot be game breaking?

Thanks for all the updates and 'consumer support' RubyEclipse, it's guys like you who make the world a better place!

I'll say that I've been playing Sonic for a very long time, and having grown up alongside the games, the actual physics and workings of the games are imbedded in my memory just as someone would have the same memories stored when riding a bike or swimming.

I think Iizuka is an idiot. I respect his status and also his ability as a game designer, but he should really keep his mouth shut. Justifying a lack of freedom in a game is never a positive thing, and he's just angering people, and showing he doesn't really have a connection with the fanbase as other employees probably do. I'm really looking forward to Sonic 4, but I am desperate to see that the issues are fixed, and I'm quite worried honestly, because I've been stung by SEGA in the past, with horrendous issues in Shadow The Hedgehog, and even games like Sonic Advance 3.

I'm like a dog that's been beaten by it's owner over and over. I don't get why I have been beaten, but I'm still pretty loyal and optimistic for the future.

 

Seconding the Iizuka thing. He doesn't need to be fired by any means but somebody please put him on a project with a different development team, ANYTHING other than sonic. Put him on a jrpg, he'd be good at that. Someone new needs to sit down and study the old classic games, make a few phonecalls to Yasuhara and figure out which principles make a decent sonic game.

 

So it turns out SEGA of America's gonna be rolling out to the New York Comic-Con in mid-October, and SEGA of Japan will be showcasing both Sonic games at TGS next week. Sweet. I wonder how the Japanese magazine will observe them. Anybody live in or going to Japan next week? New York?

 

Granted while I'm not completely happy with the direction Iizuka's taken with Sonic 4, I am satisfied with what he's doing with Colors. So honestly I'd like to see him stay, just put someone else on the Sonic 4 project

 

Wait is he directing Colors? I was starting to think the whole reason that Colors is actually good is because he's busy with Sonic 4 and Sonic Team was actually able to do their work without his meddling and stupid ideas.

 

I've never liked Iizuka, either keep him off Sonic 4 or get rid of him altogether. He was responsible for everything since Sonic Heroes, I have nothing but animosity toward him and what he's done to the franchise.

 

I thought he was just producing Colours. Maybe he's currently raging about how good it looks? I kid, but I don't think he's the director for it.

 

Yeah as I mentioned in my previous posts everything he touches turns to shit, based on what we've heard.

Off the top of my head:

Backbone was working on a new 2.5D platformer for the PSP called Sonic Lightning. Iizuka forced them to make it a racing game instead, and that became Sonic Rivals. Anyone who has player rivals can see why this is a sad thing: The engine was pretty darn decent, it had great music (one of my favorite boss themes ever) and it had the classic gameplay (all characters are fast and can roll like Sonic).

Sonic Unleashed was supposedly conceived as Sonic Adventure 3, but then we got the werehog bullshit.

And now we have a Sonic 4 sequel with a flawed design from the ground up, that's too broken to fix in time for the release, even despite the delay.

Iizuka is the ultimate stereotype of stubborn old man who is out of touch with reality.

 

Someone has to fire this tool, it really sounds like he's doing his best to run the franchise into the ground.

 

I don't think he deserves to be fired, but it's clear that he has no business leading Sonic Team based on seniority alone.